How to think?

Try to find the one thing that would change your mind on a matter.

bump

If you're trying to solve a real world problem or debate with someone, you need to first gather the facts. Don't use imagination as a substitute for facts. Also, don't mix reality with fantasy. If you do that, then your whole thinking process is flawed. However, if you have no facts to start with, then you'll have to look for them to prove that your speculations are correct.

For example, if you've never seen how glass shatters when struck with a hammer, don't make the assumption that it'll shatter like the way you'd expect based on what you've seen in movies/shows/games. If you've never done a certain activity or have no related knowledge associated with the activity, don't use imaginative thinking to figure it out. Read a guide or ask someone.

I'm not saying that imaginative thinking is inherently bad, but you need to be aware that your conclusions and speculations might be wrong.

I've tried to explore this question a month back. I don't think you can reduce thinking into an "algorithm", though there's certainly a few key essences to it. I felt that there were many different "types" of thinking, which can be used to outline ideas in their various simple and complex structures. There are many types of "core" thinking skills, which may be unique to one subject or shared with multiple kinds of subjects (quantitative, verbal, etc. in science, literature, etc.). There seems to be structures of ideas common across all subjects (feedback systems) and structures of ideas unique particular to a type of subject (rhetorical language).

Of course, while some subjects exemplify certain types of thinking (math and quantitative), other subjects require multiple types of thinking, and can be said to be not as fundamental (like economics as a combination of math, history, and philosophy). And, if you've ever noticed, the structures of ideas between subjects tend to follow patterns, so when once becomes adept at philosophy, it may become easier to understand concepts in physics because you're more capable of carving out the ideas at their joints due to your experience.

It's fairly complicated, so I'll try to explain what I mean through an autodidact's booklist, meant for capable and determined high school graduates who want to understand how everything works and develop a firm foundation for rigorous study. You have to explore the various ways of thinking, the particular and universal structures of ideas, the psychological aspects of thinking (heuristics, biases, etc.), the methods of studying that accompany the process of thinking (reading, note-taking, problem-solving, increasing your knowledge of what you know and what you don't know, asking questions, etc.), and some random habits that would help you at being at your peak when learning, reasoning, and communicating (emotional control, writing essays, basics of social skills, etc.)

I just realized that I forgot to mention that it is important to explore the "states of consciousness" that you may have in your understanding of ideas. When do you think best? What does thinking feel like to you? What do ideas "look like" to you, i.e., in what ways do you think about ideas (verbally, visually, sequentially, chaotically, etc.) How do you keep yourself thinking at your best? How do you push yourself to states of higher capacity for thought? etc.

Anyway, here's the booklist:

>AUTODIDACT CORE:
How to Read a Book - Mortimer J. Adler
The Trivium - Sister Miriam Joseph
The Oxford Essential Guide to Writing - Thomas S. Kane

Basics of studying, the basics of thinking, and basics of the structures of ideas which you may think about. A strong studying method and a grasp of the basics of thinking/ideas will show you how to charitably tackle new ideas, help you develop an appreciation for the complexity of ideas, and teach you to reformulate ideas to express them in the clearest ways possible.

>AUTODIDACT CRITICAL THINKING:
Creative and Critical Thinking: W. Edgar Moore
Thinking, Fast and Slow - Daniel Kahneman

Basics of the "cognitive" aspects of thinking. What are you doing when you think? How do you take your thinking beyond the limits of your biology?

>AUTODIDACT SELF-IMPROVEMENT:
The Discourses - Epictetus
A Primer in Positive Psychology - Christopher Peterson

Basics of the "psychological" aspects to thinking, i.e., the habits that will help you become a better thinker. You can't think when emotions are impeding your ability to see things as they are.

>AUTODIDACT LIBERAL ARTS:
The Art of Fiction - David Lodge
The Bible (KJV/NKJV)
Atlas of World History - Patrick O'Brien
The Interpretation of Cultures - Clifford Geertz
Western Philosophy: An Anthology - John Cottingham
Music In Theory And Practice - Bruce Benward
Pre-Calculus - C. Stitz & J. Zeager

An investigation into the essences of all different kinds of thinking, with the goal of understanding the purpose of a subject and the fundamentals that govern it (perhaps not quite the foundations, though you should be prepared to begin progressing towards them with hard work). This isn't the final goal, but just the stepping stones to either more sophisticated kinds of thinking in a field, or less fundamental subjects that combine multiple types of thinking, such as economics.

>AUTODIDACT SOCIAL SKILLS:
Improve Your Social Skills - Daniel Wendler
How to Speak, How to Listen -- Mortimer J. Adler

I think that no investigation into thinking is complete without understanding how others think. This prevents you from underestimating other people and neglecting the ways of thinking that you may have missed.

great

It is for posts like this i am here.
I find it amazing that someone can elaborate so much on a subject. It's like an essay, thanks Veeky Forumsizen.

1) Think of your opinion on X
2) Are you an expert on X?
3) If yes, you've arrived at the limit of your knowledge. Your opinion is well-founded and researched.
4) If not: Assume that you're wrong
5) Think of reasons as to why you could be wrong
6) Were you able to find any reasons to disprove/challenge your original assumption at 1)?
7) If yes, modify your opinion and goto 2)
8) If not, modify your opinion and goto 4)

Reflective thought is dialogical, so it helps to practice asking yourself questions and weighing conflicting views. When thinking through an argument or analysis someone else has written, it may help to mentally act out or visualize the course of the argument. Always be mindful of what you don't know.

reelly maeks yuh tink

user, instead of thinking try to talk with your thoughts. Make this as a challange, create a imaginary friend and instead of thinking talk to him for a week, you will discover a lot about thinking. You will see the thoughts that came in an instant and some developing by arguing with itself.

>create a imaginary friend
dont do this
one way ticket to self induced schizophrenia

I thought so, I remember reading about people who fell for the tulpa meme

Anybody know of a good/comparable alternative to Creative and Critical Thinking by W. Edgar Moore or where I could download a copy?

I'm having issues sourcing it. Thanks!

Did you find it?

Read Plato. Come on, people.

Any book that covers these a significant portion of these topics:

Decision making -- The hypothetical syllogism -- Reliability and probability -- Evaluating evidence -- Forming hypotheses -- Testing hypotheses -- Generalizations -- Statistical concepts -- Statistics and probability -- Reasoning from generalizations -- Forming causal theories -- Testing causal theories -- Evaluation and decision -- Value judgments -- Creative thinking -- Fallacies of irrelevance -- Neglected aspect -- Pitfalls in language -- Classification and definition -- Categorical propositions -- Immediate inference -- Categorical syllogisms -- Alternative and disjunctive syllogisms -- Interpreting propositions -- Involved arguments -- Complex syllogistic forms -- Need-directed thinking -- The personal point of view -- How we distort the evidence -- Emotions and thinking -- Hidden propositions -- Psychological pitfalls -- False assumptions -- Devices of persuasion -- Refining value systems.

This is a good start. I like this very much. Why does nobody build on some sort of framework for what "thinking" is, what "ideas" are, how complex thinking and ideas can become, what thinking feels like, and how to apply thinking to grasp ideas in practice?

All the other posts in the thread are a few tidbits here and there about detachment, charity, etc., which are good habits to overcome normal biases, but they barely scratch the surface of what good thinking is and how to practice it.

I'm sure that, if we pooled our Veeky Forums resources together, we could come up with models, habits, training, milestones, etc., that could help guide us all to think more creatively and discerningly, with more endurance and rigor. It won't be an algorithm, but you don't need an algorithm when all you need is a good map.

I'm not even joking. I'd love to start a Google Docs or even a reading/self-improvement group for this kind of stuff. Maybe it'll never go as far as to have us all working on ourselves consistently, but at least it could be fun watching us all contribute to a thinking project.

Let me organize what we have discovered so far.

Critical Thinking (Partially Psychology):
(multiple)
>How to approach new ideas and debate other people with the aim of uncovering all knowledge that we possibly can, without misleading ourselves thanks to this bias, this framework, or that heuristic.

Phenomenology of Thinking (Partially Psychology):
(multiple)
>Related to how states of consciousness affect thinking, such as arousal, emotions, focus, motivation, reward & punishment, and the structures of thought themselves (visual? verbal?
instantaneous and silent?), etc.

Creativity:
>Practices which enhance our abilities to generate novel ideas and innovate pre-existing ideas.

Learning:
>Habits which, if practiced thoroughly, guarantee that we function at peak intellectual ability when tackling new subjects.

These aren't the only categories out there, nor am I professing that this the most effective way to categorize everything about "thinking". But maybe somebody will get the idea here.

This is exactly what i thought about a few weeks ago.
Why do we kid ourselves, people here are above average intellect. The board Veeky Forums is for books, though i can understand people wanting to ask people different book unrelated questions because of the feelings of someone one can relate to.

Also i do think if we combine and restructure all the little bits ( as in ) we could create something noteable.

I'm down for this starting this weekend.

This thread won't die.

Nothing except used books through Amazon from some sketchy looking third party sellers.

If I knew of a book that covered that I wouldn't have asked for a title of alternative books on how to think critically and creatively.

smoke weed.

Maybe this?

philosophy.hku.hk/think/

Good, i've currently got a bit of time on my hands, how do we want to set it up?

Hmmm, a Google Drive collaboration thing would be interesting. A few docs, one with the "polished" version of our conclusions, one with discussion, and one that serves as the "scratchpad" or "roughdraft".

Sounds like a good idea.
I'll try n set it up later.

Any other good books like "How to Read a Book" by Mortimer J. Adler??

maybe this will help someone

Anyone?

Have you learned how to learn yet OP?

I don't know what that is, but, I'm going to recommend
>the art of seeing sideways
>moonwalking with Einstein

Make a few threads, every once in a whiel, in case I miss it.

I like this project.

Maybe we'll keep this thread until the weekend

maybe

Learn Anything mind map: github.com/nikitavoloboev/knowledge-map

Try this book: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel,_Escher,_Bach

Okay, so i just set it up. I won't be able to do more than this until the weekend comes around and even then i'm probably short on time as i have a rough schedule.

Every link is each doc above.

>Discussions Doc:
docs.google.com/document/d/1bWqLoyp5lWJ-VAKB4TnBR5nwv_tY_t8O_hWlzW-gSqY/edit?usp=sharing

>Final version.
docs.google.com/document/d/1Omr6DWAsTrNWRcuJIVr2s2IZ5jnTg7qAtNvWs4m22n8/edit?usp=sharing

>Rough draft:
docs.google.com/document/d/1qqgxs9oc6CdiJz_8nd6rvgklsMiu2ZtexGR6AW3jr4w/edit?usp=sharing

I only let people comment, i'll try and administer whatever shit gets thrown in, if it get's to much i'll need someone who helps me. Maybe we could even get a discord where we can talk once a week.

I've had a brain damage incident which basically stripped my ability to think verbally. I can talk, have thoughts (somehow); I appear functional, but inside my head is silence. I don't feel anything I know verbally until I say or write it down. I'd like to know too, how to think.

I'd probably kill myself. Or maybe it would feel like salvation.
Just smoke as much weed as you want to.

Anyone still interested?

It's pretty much the opposite for me. I can understand things clearly in my head and sort out to what I want to accomplish, but when I try conveying it with spoken words, it just comes out as nebulous reflections of what I actually mean. Maybe it's because I pretty much never talk to anyone, and when I actually utter words, I realize my brain is basically not conditioned for that activity and it just sort of comes out in blurts.

I started typing suggestions but it turned annoying really fast. Should I sign in from a throwaway email?

On the Google Drive, I think we should start by incorporating as much insight from this thread as possible, as well as brainstorming some models of our own. We should aim to: 1) formulate important questions; 2) use the answers to the questions to develop some sort of model; and 3) transform the model into something suitable for practical use, reference, etc. Hopefully, with enough people putting their heads together, we could summarize our findings into an interesting post and attract critics, helpers, testers, etc.

At first, not even joking, we're gonna have to start some basics. First we start with the subjective realm (thinking... i.e. the act of thinking, what do thoughts capture, what kind of thoughts we can have) before moving onto the objective realm (ideas... i.e. what thoughts aim to grasp, resemble, represent, etc., what types of ideas are out there, what logical structures can they form, etc.). We need to have a solid idea of what we should strive for, as well as what we shouldn't underestimate in terms of complexity, when developing a guide to thinking.

Once that occurs, we can start talking about common pitfalls, the best subjects, the best books (maybe even create sample curricula), the best habits, the psychological elements of arousal/bias/etc., and perhaps a myriad of "fine-tuning" tips and tricks. Hopefully, there won't be much overlap, and we'll be left with a systematic guide to accessing the full power of our cognitive potential.

You gotta realize that outlining the steps of practical thinking is vastly different from taking those principles and applying them to your own way of thinking. It takes years to wire your brain to change into functioning differently.

The ones that seek better ways to think will find those ways because there's just so much material on it out there. Why waste your time when it's been done before and much better by smarter people?

also "the conscious experience" should be included as well. People who think too linearly should be encouraged to think in webs, people who think too chaotically should practice thinking linearly, etc. I think our project is quickly reaching the scope of full-on cognitive-behavioral training, which is honestly a good thing if it ever gets off the ground. We're all pretty good thinkers compared to the average, but why should we refrain from improving the thought patterns established by environment and genes when we have the decision-making and habit-forming capabilities to at least "re-program" ourselves to be more efficient?

Think about that idea.

fascinating. someone without an inner dialogue. can you visualize words in your minds eye or shapes? what part of your brain was injured?

if you begin at "not being able to think" no kind of reasoning will get you to it because you are capable of no kind of reasoning.

it is likely that, instead, you are doing it but doing it wrong. if you (wrongly) believe in that you will find opportunity to improve as faulty predictions and reasonings become untenable.

>

You gotta realize that outlining the steps of practical thinking is vastly different from taking those principles and applying them to your own way of thinking.

I think that there are elements of thinking that are universal across minds. Everybody thinks differently with different ways, but we all have extremely similar neural templates in which we process thought. Nobody is seeing infrared, synesthetes are outliers, etc. Not all thinking is alike in quality, but the experience is familiar and similar enough to build a practical model, unless you want to argue that most humans are not capable of having intelligible communication with one another.

Ideas, as abstract facts, are also independent of human thinking abilities, so as long as we can demonstrate the logical structure of an idea, then we're good to go. Types of idea structures, like equilibrium and positive feedback loops, are not going to change regardless of the topic where they're found or the person trying to grasp them. With this understanding, we'll know what we want to grasp through thinking, which would better inform how to think better.

>It takes years to wire your brain to change into functioning differently.

Of course. I'm in it for the long run, always.

>The ones that seek better ways to think will find those ways because there's just so much material on it out there. Why waste your time when it's been done before and much better by smarter people?

I haven't found much material that has tried to break it down into a practical guide, into several target-able elements, or into some form of universal curriculum. If you look up somebody like Gwern, you'll find great information on the power of statistics and the lack of proof associated with Dual N-Back training, but you don't really find any models of what thinking should be like and how to consciously cultivate it. That's what I think we should change, because it's a damn shame that we've all had mind-bending experiences through one rigorous study or another, and yet we can't articulate how exactly we've improved, although we know it happened.

Read a lot, think about it, talk with people, intentionally challenge your beliefs.

No reason to kill myself when life, basically, continues, and I can still read literature for a sense of fulfillment. When you lose something like this, it's hard to miss it, as you don't understand it anymore. Even now I'm not fully sure that I lost anything, but logically there was something there, that isn't here now.

Yes, I used to be that way. It actually became very easy for me to speak after I lost my inner dialogue. The words come out at no cost. I wonder if this is how normal people have lived all this time.

I can have limited words in my head, but they are more like... sounds of speech, and it is very tiring to form anything in words inside my head. If I try too hard, I get stuck repeating one simple phrase while somehow arriving at a vaguely felt conclusion to my thoughts, while repeating the same meaningless phrase and trying to understand how to continue. If I speak I suddenly voice that conclusion perfectly with my spoken words, but it is impossible to put that conclusion into words specifically inside my head.

>can you visualize words in your minds eye or shapes?
It's difficult for me to say what really happens. Maybe I could describe them as vague concealed shapes lurking in the back of the mind, whose meaning I somehow just -know-. I've stopped using language for inner needs.

>what part of your brain was injured?
To be honest, this is just something that I say because I believe it, but MRI scans haven't been able to find anything. I've given up on finding the source because I can't afford to visit doctors anymore.

nomorepanic.co.uk/showthread.php?t=92509
Just found a story that is similar to mine, with no explanations though. I'm also not taking any meds.

How can you actually write down sentences if you can't think verbally?

I don't know.

Interesting.
How can you evaluate anything said?

If you mean my own words, generally I feel that it is easy for me now to say things as I think of them--correctly on the first try, and faults in expression must be associated with those in my own reasoning. I feel for a sense of inner disagreement to find those faults. Essentially, it's all feels when it comes to perceiving language. I must voice them to figure out things more clearly, so I value dialogue now.

I am currently learning Japanese and it is going well: I am memorizing new Chinese characters, words, grasping new grammar (such as still left for me).

I suspect and pretty much accept as fact that I cannot be a good thinker anymore, but what the hell, I can still feel like one.

>(such as still left for me).
* such as there is still left for me.

I actually noticed I make mistakes a little more often when speaking, noticeably so. Now English isn't my native language, but this happens in Russian, too. My speech is almost broken at times...

Sounds like me when i'm high.
It's so easy to accept the first thought. I just don't have to question myself.

>I suspect and pretty much accept as fact that I cannot be a good thinker anymore, but what the hell, I can still feel like one.

I don't think you're as damaged as you thought. Is your problem that you don't subvocalize and that now the process of thinking is more instantaneous?

Yes. I've assumed that this leads to weakened rigor in complex thinking. I remember being greatly bothered by the loss of subvocalization and panicking at first.

>thoughts

Put another way... consider thoughts as vessels for ideas. I think we all have very similar arrays of vessels as a function of our neuropsychology. It would be helpful to identify the basics units of thoughts, or "vessels/representations of ideas", so we can study how they grasp ideas, how they interact with one another, and how their generation can be cultivated to understand more complicated structures (i.e., encourage better, deeper, maybe even quicker thinking).

>long-run

For emphasis... if you find a roadmap, you're doing yourself a huge favor rather than hoping that simply enriching your education with this textbook or that novel is improving your thinking abilities.

How do you measure your progress? When do you know that you're pushing yourself to your limits? What is thinking like for other people? How do you increase the range of ideas that you're comfortable with (I think this would be goal of those with Renaissance Man-style ambitions... becoming familiar and capable across a variety of skills)?

>Yes. I've assumed that this leads to weakened rigor in complex thinking.

Why? Has your work ethic declined? Can you evaluate the products of your thinking after you've written them down? It sounds like your "canvas space" has changed.

Honestly, I feel like I should read about the experiences of other people more often, because I find it difficult to imagine a world where I had some sort of middleground of some speech but in such a way that it's very hard for it to "take over" or "move to the forefront" of my awareness.

I have no clear answers to that beyond what I've already said, actually. I'm still doing fine, that's the thing. Well, it feels better to believe in what you're saying. I'm actually not well informed on how others think too, on such a mechanical level.

That's how stupid people think. You're better off, as you had some preperationtime to this point.

As an analogy for a thinker who thinks, consider yourself a painter who paints. To me, it seems like you don't have a private canvas available to you, but your skills have remained the same. If you get good at managing your train of thought through other means (journaling, auto-locution, drafting process, dual monitors, etc.), then you're fine IMO.

Have you tried meditation for long periods of time? What about training yourself to become a synesthete or to have relative perfect pitch? Just curious if you're done much to "alter" your internal mental realm.

It's hard to contribute to this right now.

bump

GOOD bump

I have a tight scheule atm, i'll be out today and tomorrow, i'll start working on it on sunday.
Why is it hard?

I've mostly been worried, blindly tried to get back what I had. At first I did not subvocalize even when reading (I never realized that you could read without subvocalization...), but even after I restored reading subvocalization by forcing myself to read more, I had massive problems with confusion and forgetting what I was reading mid-sentence, even in the middle of a word. It gave me strong headaches. That too went away after two months, so it convinced me that I could do a total recovery, but apparently that isn't happening, months in.

Those are interesting ideas, but pursuing them means giving up, which to be honest, I have done by now, so... I'll try some of that, why not. Life goes on. I don't want to bring this thread off topic anymore than I already have, though.

The suggestion feature is really clunky when there's no content to make suggestions on. Confuses the hell out of me, makes it hard for me to format.

bump

Trust me, your personal experiences are extremely relevant, esp. WRT the conscious experience of thinking that often gets overlooked. Thank you for sharing.

>How does one actually learns to think?
Some people can, and a lot cannot. You are definitely the latter. Delete your life.

Why would you be mean to a stranger?

because he is insecure

How can you want to dedicate your time to thinking if you don't know how to think?

If you don't know how to think then you don't know when you're thinking intentionally, therefore you probably can't recognize when you're thinking.

If you can't recognize when you're thinking, then you don't know what it's like to think.

So how the fuck can you want to spend your time thinking if you don't know how to think or even know what it would be like to think?

tl;dr You don't want to think.

Autism

think sexual

Autism

I think this is best advice actually, it's the most natural thinking order, also you might actually get laid

>A Primer in Positive Psychology - Christopher Peterson
>Western Philosophy: An Anthology - John Cottingham
>Improve Your Social Skills - Daniel Wendler
Where could I download a copy of those books?

I used to know someone like you. He was an autist. Good luck!

For me the most important thing is drowning out mental noise. Not just audio, but especially visual. At any given second of a day, how many brands names are in your sight, screaming at you to pay attention and think about them? Corporate and political elements are constantly screaming and demanding that you think about them as much as possible, because it's to their benefit (even though it poisonous to your thought process).

Sometimes I even wear an eye mask and use ear plugs just because i don't want my thought processes broken by some crying baby, random advertisement, or my brain subconsciously fixating on some nearby conversation.

Remove the noise. Don't let things force you to think about random unrelated shit.

Really deep stuff, man. You should be a philosopher or something.

fast bump

>crying over shit talking on a Chinese cartoon forum

I ain't crying, I just thought it was pretty stupid. Still appreciated the bump.

Anybody still interested in this project? Where's the Google Drive bro?