NASA claims that rockets work in space because of Newton's 3rd law, but there is no atmosphere to aid in that equal and opposite reaction
;there's no atmosphere to push against (some Veeky Forums guy mentioned it in a thread a couple weeks ago)
>believing in the space meme in 2018
>ignoring all logical possibilities
somebody please enlighten me if im being a brainlet
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>NASA claims that rockets work in space because of Newton's 3rd law
That is how they work
>but there is no atmosphere to aid in that equal and opposite reaction
You don't need an atmosphere. Expelling a jet stream at high velocity will create thrust in the opposite direction - you don't need an atmosphere for that.
but isnt it pushing off of the jetstream? (what then is the jetstream pushing off of)
You know what momentum transfer is right? If a particle is initially at test, then is accelerated in some direction to an arbitrary velocity, then force was applied to it, and momentum was therefore added to the particle proportional to it's mass and velocity. Obviously, if this force was applied to the particle to accelerate it, that force came from somewhere, and the momentum of the particle is applied in the opposite direction to what pushed it. Listen carefully. Rocket make many particle go very fast. Not only is it not pushing on the atmosphere, the atmosphere pushes back on particle and causes less momentum. Pushing against the atmosphere make rocket go slower because particle not go as fast.
>you know what momentum transfer is right?
no
thank you for guidance, regardless of patronizing, much appreciated user
Do me a favor, point out the word ''atmosphere'' in Newton's laws.
>but isnt it pushing off of the jetstream?
No, it's pushing off the exhaust gases.
When a rocket burns, the flame gets pushed one way and the rocket gets pushed the other.
also i was thinking the exhaust needed something to "ground" itself for the rocket to "push off" the exhaust
Newton didnt test in a vacuum
That's like saying that a man can't jump unless he stands in a bucket and holds onto the handles, and he could also hover if he pushes hard enough.
That's retarded right? I hope you at least agree with that. When you jump, you push on the earth. The earth is the particle you transfer momentum to. In a rocket, the exhaust is the particle you push against and add momentum to. And it pushes back and adds the same amount of momentum to you in the opposite direction.
right so i was, and possibly still am , under the impression that in a vacuum the exhaust gases would just fly out and the rocket wouldnt be able to push off them, because theres no particles
agreed, forgive my lapse in brain function
They fly out because the rocket is pushing against them.
oh wait...
now i really understand how asinine of a thought process that was
EVERY force has an equal and opposite force
vacuum of space, atmosphere of Earth, doesn't matter
This is some mind blowing stupidity. If you are just now learning that in space, there's no atmosphere, then you have no place claiming that rocket thrust in space is a meme. You are the manlet of brainlets
Newton's laws require that all objects involved are part of the same positive pressure system, aka earth and its surrounding atmosphere.
All objects involved in a chain of equal and opposite reactions must be able to enact force on each other to provide equal and opposite reactions.
On earth, the propeller of a boat pushes off the ocean, but the ocean must also push off its container, and the container must push off something else etc, etc, a constant chain of equal and opposite reactions must be maintained for the laws to work.
A vacuum breaks this link of equal and opposite reactions, a gas and a vacuum cannot create thrust together, hence space travel is a meme.
ive always known that, i was simply verifying whether or not my assumptions were correct, that being said, it be more brainlet to assume things are truth without verifying them myself (i.e. trying to understand whether or not a rocket could work in a vacuum because i have no logical proof that we've been to space
>inb4 but the pictures, but the equations that we were told of what they represent, but daddy tesla
)
thanks user
Literally not true and I don't know if I could even dumb down the basics of the bedrock elementary school principles of physics enough for you to understand.
Say u hav 1 gumball and another gumball. So now you have how many? Two gumball! So you have two gumball. You put one gumball on the side of your play mat when you're at special intervention educat- I mean good boy school. Now you put other gumball on other side of play mat. Now.... roll them together so they meet in the middle, on the big blue puzzle piece logo. Wow! They bounced off each other and went back towards he side they came from! Amazing, you're such a good boy. You just learned the law of conservation of momentum! Extra tendies for you today big guy.
That isn't NASA's claim, that is Newton's claim. And it has been well accepted by not just NASA, but everyone with a high school education since Newtonian mechanics became accepted laws of the world we live in.
>space travel is a meme.
Can you explain how GPS works?
Deep state jews who put nanites in your barbecue sauce
Why do people think space is a vacuum when gravity does exist in space along with gasses and other elements? Space isn't a void of nothingness
no can you?
>inb4 then go read more trig textbooks
pliz explain right now how GPS works
>Alex Jones intensifies
there's a network of high-orbit satellites that are constantly pinging their location in every direction
a receiver on earth can figure out it's location on the Earth's surface with two or three (ideally three) different satellite pings
A system of satellites orbiting the Earth receives radio signals from a GPS-enabled device somewhere on Earth. The signals include the time they were sent. By timing how long it takes the signal to travel from the transmitter to the satellite, you can figure out how far away the satellite is. If you do this for 4 satellites, you can triangulate the exact position on Earth that the device is at.
You don't need any trig, you can do it with a compass and a ruler.
I simply wished to understand how rockets work in a vaccuum
We explained it, and yet you and others kept denying it. The fact that the GPS system exists and works, and uses space-based satellites, is proof that rockets do in fact work in space.
It is infinitely more brainlet to open a conversation claiming that NASA has been tricking people the whole time while stating that we are all "ignoring all logical possibilities".
If you are truly claiming we have "no logical proof" that we've been to space (whatever that means), then I say buy yourself a telescope, not the walmart brand, find out when the ISS will cross over you and then simply look up.
Lastly, once you graduate highschool and start taking the baby math classes offered in college, you start to actually understand physics and put them into practice. There's no need to just take people's word for them anymore. But sadly, you will never experience that situation because you are unable to process any thought beyond "I don't understand something, so it must not be real"
Have you heard the saying "opposites attract"? Gases (positive pressure) and a vacuum (negative pressure) will attract each other. This is fundamental, provable science. They cannot repel each other and produce thrust., that's fucking fantasy.
It doesn't work everywhere. But it could be done with weather balloons (particularly geostationary satellites), drones, high altitude planes, anything that can fly and carries GPS technology, as well as land based telecommunications via triangulation.
The numbers involved would be much different. You would get different distances measured if it was done with anything but satellites. Geostationary satellites orbit at ~22,000 miles altitude. A balloon can't go anywhere near that high.
It's sad to know that people as idiotic as you have access to the internet and you insist on spreading your ignorance. You are a virus in human form. Gasses are positive and a vacuum is negative? You claim it's fundamental, yet you have no understanding of what gas is, what a vacuum is, or what the terms positive and negative mean. Your life is a disgrace, and I feel as though the universe owes us all an apology for not letting you die before you had the chance to form even one of your asinine remarks.
>autistically screeches about people needing to learn some fucking basic physics
>provides no physics of their own
>satellites orbit at ~22,000 miles altitude
Prove it.
What happens when a gas meets a vacuum Mr Nobel Prize?
>NASA claims
>Posts pic of Ariane 5
I will not even care to explain how 3rd Newton law works. People who are this stupied need to change themselfs, before trying explaining things to them
Well I can actualy see ISS with my telescope.
>What happens when a gas meets a vacuum Mr Nobel Prize?
Wew. He must be fucking pretending.
its not that i dont understand it so it musnt be real but rather the way i understand it doesnt line up with what im being told
The same thing that happens when a gas of greater density meets a gas of lesser density. They spread out to reach equilibrium. Neither one is "attracting" the other. Sorry, but your 2nd grade science teacher was wrong
>themselfs
themselves
Thank you.
Wow, I can't believe even that explanation was a little too highbrow for you. In my experience, they usually keep people like you on enough Thorazine to keep you in bed so you don't hurt yourself in a tantrum when you're stopped from licking the windows. Do they allow internet access in group homes now?
Don't. Don't even.
>gets told Santa is real for the first 10 years of his life
>one day, he is told that Santa isn't real
>What I'm being told doesn't add up, I like Santa, and everyone who says he isn't real is just a liar covering up a conspiracy!
>"But here's the proof that Santa doesn't exist"
>I DON'T UNDERSTAND SHHHHH YOU LIE
Sorry brainlet but two gases of differing densities will naturally repel each other and separate. A gas and a vacuum will not repel each other, they are attracted to each other. A gas wants to fill a vacuum, and a vacuum wants to be filled. I can't spell this out any clearer for you.
I have a stupid related question.
Are we in space right now?
Now I understand we are on Earth, but the planet is in space, so aren't we in space?
argumentum ad hominem
I'm just going to take that response as a "I have no idea what I'm talking about, so I'll spout nonsense"
Nah man, physics is really Kikestrodynamics. You aren't taking into account the effect that the shabbos has on gasses when you are 30 shmeckle's length away from a baconator. Natural inverse quantum field shift from red to light cyan, which makes space travel possible on every tuesday when a reptilian isn't in mating season on alpha centuari.
user please. It depends on definition of "being on earth" and "being in space" you use in given sentence.
Look at you with your big boy words! I bet you managed to keep the pampers off for a whole day without needing a little cleany poo. Still, life must be hard for someone who couldn't even complete highschool special ed. What do they have you little guys do these days? Back when i worked taking care of the developmentally handicapped, we had to just keep them in the lobby of the local recycling plant for appearances. We tried to get you scamps to do basic tasks like move object a to location b, but you never knew when they would shit themselves or start masturbating and we needed to keep a better eye on ya.
If I walk in the fridge I am in the fridge. If I have a big enough fridge and I crane in a sustainable pod and put it in the fridge I am still in the fridge.
I'm just going to take that response as "I have no retort, therefore I concede. Space travel is a meme and I've been duped".
...
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You write like someone who was molested as a child. You were, weren't you? Who was it? The classic uncle touch, or maybe even your dad. Was it a stranger? I bet they made you feel like a good girl and you get hard when you think about it, because you really liked being fucked, deep down.
youtube.com
like in vid except a rocket doesn't throw a bullet, it just throws gas. The bullet doesn't push off the air, it gets pushed by the gas explosion. The gas explosion also pushes the gun, but mostly the reaction from the mass of the bullet being thrown at several hundred feet per second is what pushes the gun, the shooter, and ultimately the boat, through the water.
In vacuum, the explosion in the combustion chamber of the rocket still happens because they brought their own oxidizer. That basically means the combustion chamber isn't in vacuum, then the explosion can only go one way, out the end of the rocket. It tries to rip the rocket apart (pushes on the rocket) but the rocket is strong enough to hold itself together before the pressure escapes out the nozzle, which controls the exploded gas so that it all moves in the same direction. This maximizes the push from the explosion in the combustion chamber on the rocket so that the fuel is used efficiently.
If you closed off the nozzle, then the explosion would cause a bunch of little pieces of the rocket to move in all directions all at once. I think you understand that this would happen even in vacuum. But when you open up one end, you get one big piece of of the rocket all moving in the same direction.
Go ahead and believe that, it won't effect my life or the real world. I would say something like we'll leave you in the dust, but humans have known space travel has been possible for over 100 years, so I'll just leave you with a pat on the back and an "OK buddy ;)"
He must be pretending. I mean, there is not a single person on Earth being this stupied and able to use internet.
Is that you Bill Nye? No need to take your anger out on me, go find another career.
(OP)
The New York Times thought EXACTLY the same thing -- in 1920.
They published a retraction the day Apollo 11 lifted.
It only took them 49 years to figure this out.
Can you do better?
Did he look like Bill? I bet you can almost feel those dirty hands on your no no parts when you see a bowtie.
I believe some of this, but not others. Am i a scientismian?
>actually thinking that tin can piece of shit went into space
more like
>entire population gets told that santa is real
>dont really believe it or understand the logistics but everyone else seems to believe it so i guess ill just agree with them
>finds out santa isnt real 7 years later
>wait how can everyone i know just lie to me and make me believe something so asinine
>i cant trust anyone and i must make sure my beliefs are backed by certainty
but at the point were the exhaust escape so the rocket doesnt blow up, there is a vacuum
so the combustion chamber(on a rocket) works like a capacitor, releasing the pressure at a certain point?
Fuel is originally at rest inside the rocket. Exhaust gets accelerated by whatever reaction propels the rocket. This, in turn, makes the rocket accelerate in the opposite direction. Where are you lost?
In a way, it's the exact inverse of two bodies with equal and opposite momentum colliding.
after the exhaust leaves the nozzle, it no longer interacts with the rocket so no longer imparts momentum into the rocket. It just endless drifts out in space in a straight line unless it bumps into some of the nearby gas. The gas in the combustion chamber pushes out the gas near the nozzle, the gas near the nozzle pushes back against the gas in the combustion chamber (Newton's Third Law). As this gas leaves, it also pushes against itself and expands, where it hits the nozzle and again pushes against the rocket directly. The rocket pushes back against the gas and the gas now leaves the rocket for good traveling mostly in the direction opposite the rocket.
The combustion chamber works like am untied water balloon. The explosion gives the inside high pressure, the hole at the end gives the gas under pressure a place to go.
satellites theoretically could just be high alt balloons, towers, land based system, high alt drones and planes, underground ocean cables. The only real pictures we get are from inside out atmosphere.
>can't prove rockets work in a vacuum
lol
If I were magically floating in space with a bag full of baseballs, and I started throwing those baseballs at a fixed point, I would accelerate away from said fixed point.
Why does it feel like human understanding is regressing.
yes but combustion chamber gas
Well, you're wrong. Push on a bowling ball and you'll move the other way.
Conservation of momentum. No isolated system can change its center-of-mass. The COM is somewhere between you and the ball, right? If the ball moves and you don't then the COM will recede at some fraction of the ball's speed.
If you are 10 times as massive as the ball it will go one way at X and you will go the other at X/10. All velocities measured from a pebble which was floating next to you and has been left undisturbed.
Except, you fucking nigger, that 1. the exosphere is thin enough to not really interfere with satellites in LEO, but enough to make them need orbital correction occasionally or burn up, and 2. we actually used to have a land-based long range global positioning system called LORAN, which was inaccurate, shit, and only really useful for ships, and taken offline in 2000.
what's important isnt an explanation of how it works, whats important is the proof of that it works
all im seeing are people beating around the bush
dont simply say
>the particles push off of eachother you dont need an atmosphere, do you not understand momentum brainlet, i cant explain it to a brainlet etc.
show us proofs that two particles in a vacuum can push of off eachother from rest; GPS isnt proof, pictures/media/video of moonlanding isnt proof
Give us mathematical proof or go back to /pol/
>inb4 brainlet doesnt see video/pictures as proof
this is Veeky Forums people, be intentional about things
also stop getting emotional this isnt /women anonymous/
considering the conservation of momentum, the only way space travel works because of before it leaves the atmosphere
a rocket cannot go from standstill to moving, because theres no momentum to conserve
momentum is the product of mass and velocity. A change in momentum over a change in time results in a force. Since your mass as a rocket changes when you expell fuel (or anything else) you induce a force. Forces move things.
can we close the thread now? I fucking hatr these baitropolis shitholes of a thread we have
> mathematical proof
Fuck off you stupid brainlet, that isn't how mathematical proof works at all. Physics CANNOT be "proven" without experimentation. If video footage of spacecraft working or video footage of vacuum chambers demonstrating these effects are not enough to convince you then I don't know what will.
Let me explain this, again, in a way maybe you can grasp.
The Third Law states that all actions have an equal and opposite reaction. Imagine having a machine gun. When you shoot it you experience recoil. If it shot bullets big enough it might be able to go upwards if fired down. This is what a rocket does, and it does not require an atmosphere. You could try shooting a gun in a vacuum chamber but I doubt the chamber owners would let you.
This is effectively what a rocket engine does, shooting rocket exhaust gases, sort of like blanks, in a controlled manner to propel itself.
You may be confused because aircraft need an atmosphere to function. This is because they are, to keep up the analogy, basically collecting bullets from in front of them to shoot. It's not a great analogy but I hope you can understand it.
Newton's Third Law, conservation of momentum, Newton's Second Law, and finally Newton's First Law. If you are confused about how those are involved, see the explanation.
OP here
/thread
>Well I can actualy see ISS with my telescope.
ISS moves very fast across the sky. How are you able to follow it with the telescope?
This shitpost is the Veeky Forums equivalent of pic related.
It's not funny, it's just obnoxious.
think of it as an explosion, blasting outwards in all directions equally. The rocket just happens to be in the way and gets blasted along.
To make this process more efficient they construct nozzles and shit.
No he didn't. That's why he was such a fucking genius. He was able to derive general laws just by sitting behind his desk and doing calculations.
The point is that the laws work both in an atmosphere and in a vacuum.
>but isnt it pushing off of the jetstream? (what then is the jetstream pushing off of
The jetstream pushes against the spacecraft with the same force as the aircraft pushes against the jetstream.
The force applied on both is equal.
The mass of both is not equal.
Acceleration = Force/Mass
The spacecraft gets accelerated a bit and the jetstream gets accelerated much more.
this is really really simple kindergarden stuff
...
You really are dumb or a complete shitposter! Despicable in either case!
>only way space travel works
means you accept probes have gone to Mars.
They're aimed so accurately that they just wind up at Mars?
No. Their trajectories are observed for awhile and then commands are sent to make course corrections. And how do you do that if the probe is a million miles from Earth and rockets don't work in a vacuum?
#1 space isn't nothing.
#2 the newtonian laws used here aren't perfect but there is still an equal and opposite reaction to push from
the chemical reaction expands in the combustion chamber of the rocket and propels the rocket forward throughout space. there's your equal and opposite reaction. the combustion of the chemical process pushing against the rocket.
no atmosphere required.
but, again, space isn't nothing.
The mass of the craft is the equal and opposite reaction to the propellant. Propellant flies left, craft flies right. Get it now?
>no atmosphere
Welcome back to 1920, user.
>Get BTFO about your balloon conspiracies
>Sulk for a month
>Come back and hope nobody remembers
Sad!
>Conspiracy is a criminal charge
>What law/code would space balloons fall under as a crime/offense?
Goodbye thread.
Maybe it's better this way.
>put into orbit by a thor-delta
Why are we arguing. They outright say they launched the payload first then it floated down as a balloon.
There is no argument here about how far the vacuum of space stretches.