I want to be a huge sellout and write a trilogy of YA books that gets adapted into a low-grade quadrilogy of shitty...

Why would that make me feel better? It just makes the objectification aspect even worse: the male dominated culture is literally crafting imagined female bodies because real female bodies are apparently not good enough.

Because it's obvious the only reason you care about her is that she's beautiful.

There absolutely must be different categories for the reader to identify with. See: Harry Potter's houses, Hunger Games' districts, Twilight's vampires/werewolves. All young adult fiction is an invitation to place oneself into the story in an effort to find the "true" self. This is why 24-year-old college students still identify so strongly with their Harry Potter house.

I feel a personal interest in her well being in particular only because of her attractiveness, so much is true.

The thought that I would not be enraged at the objectification of a woman I don't find attractive, or that I wouldn't also be enraged at an ugly woman getting ridiculed, however, is false.

The thought that I could not care personally for an ugly woman, in case you meant to imply that as well, is also false.

Pic related. I actually love this woman. Nobody has a passion for justice as fiery as hers and a heart nevertheless as warm.

>you're furious at the sexual objectification
Is this bait? What the fuck are you even doing on Veeky Forums?

All the work has already been done to you by Jung. Just use his astrology-worthy archetype personality system, have one character of each leading one different faction. Then young adults can all identify with it and Hollywood will shower you with money.

>unabashedly claiming to love Dworkin on Veeky Forums

I don't know what you're doing, but I respect you. Why are you even here?

I could ask myself the same question

>I hope that she's made a lot of money from the modeling, didn't suffer too much harassment, and is now living a happy life.
I love how feminists look down on women so much they don't even consider that females who enjoy doing jobs they don't personally approve of might exist.

Write under a female first name and a Jewish last name. Female and Jewish and especially Jewish Female media people will be very quick to review your work once it gets notice.

Get to work, Rebecca Bloom.

Also, you might consider giving your protagonist a Jewish name and coincidentally having them defeat and humiliate people with German and WASP names.

David Gold saves Sarah Glass from the evil clutches of rich kid Colton Hamilton and his brutally efficient hired goon, Hans Jaeger.

Of course, never mention the word Jew. This is supposed to go right over the goy readers' heads.

Worked for K A Applegate.

Came for the anime, stayed for the shitposting.

The fact that some women enjoy jobs that risk their well being from a sexual harassment perspective, and adds to the sexual objectification of women, does not contradict the observation that said jobs put them under higher risk of sexual harassment, and add to the sexual objectification of women.

As an extreme example, women in prostitution face extremely high risks of rape, beatings, and murder, yet some of them build pride in the occupation (especially as a psychological defense mechanism against the ostracism faced from society).

>women in prostitution face extremely high risks of rape, beatings, and murder
Source? In my country prostitution is a heavily regulated and professional thing. Also literally everything you've been saying is bullshit or goes two ways and it's note-worthy.

>it's note-worthy.
isn't note-worthy

>she's sexy therefore the audience is men
Lesbian erasure is not progressive, friend

You can literally just google prostitution violence statistics or something. I'm lazy so here's the first result:
rapeis.org/activism/prostitution/prostitutionfacts.html

There's more recent studies too.

Also, what country is that?

1. You're a heterosexual man trying to use this argument as a gotcha.
2. 99% of such material is produced by men, for men.
3. 99% of the audience is men.
Not going to provide citations because come on sempai, this is common sense. Numeric figures not meant literally.

The statistics are worthless without the average murder rate for women in other professions, specially somewhat comparable where you're 1-1 with the customers. Also given how most people visiting prostitute are the kind who won't get laid otherwise, they tend to have more issues, further skewing the data. It'd be more helpful to look at the number of crime against escorts.

Here's a helpful gotcha: you people are unspeakably dull.

As someone with the only contribution being to call others dull, you must be an expert on the subject.

>the male dominated culture is literally crafting imagined female bodies because real female bodies are apparently not good enough.
Or, and this will blow your mind, maybe some female bodies really are naturally better than others and it's the ugly women who want to change their bodies, just like men get hair transplants and whatnot in this "male dominated culture" you absolute clown.

>The statistics are worthless without the average murder rate for women in other professions
Jesus Christ, can't you use Google? Do I have to spoon feed you everything?

In 2004, the homicide rate for prostituted women in the United States was estimated to be 204 per 100,000:
academic.oup.com/aje/article-lookup/doi/10.1093/aje/kwh110

The deadliest job in the United States as of 2015 is Fishing, in which 131 deaths per 100,000 happen:
bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-dangerous-jobs/

Women in prostitution in the United States are much more likely to be murdered than people working in the deadliest job are to die of an accident.

Now re-read that last paragraph.

Women in prostitution also die of drug overdoses, suicide, and sexually transmitted diseases. If you counted that in, prostitution would probably easily be twice as deadly as the next deadliest job.

>most people visiting prostitute are the kind who won't get laid otherwise
This is a myth.
nordicmodelnow.org/myths-about-prostitution/myth-punters-are-lonely-single-men/

>they tend to have more issues, further skewing the data
Wait what now, we're supposed not to count in murderers who are "poor lonely sods"? They are murderers. They murder prostituted women. They are sadists.

Ah, yes, because the woman in has a "naturally inferior" and ugly body and needed photoshopping because of that.
Sure thing, you absolute fucking clown.
Did you even read the part of my post that you quoted?

>naturally inferior
Men are primed to like symmetry, good skin, youth; women are primed to like symmetry, good skin, full hair. Yes, wrinkles and dull eyes and age and small hips and saggy tits and whatnot make you naturally inferior. But of course you can do mental gymnastics and oppression olympics and come out with "everyone is the same and men are evil".

There is cosmetic surgery for women, and there is cosmetic surgery for men. Pretending that BOTH are because of "patriarchy" is so intellectualy lazy it makes me laugh.

>Women in prostitution also die of drug overdoses, suicide, and sexually transmitted diseases. If you counted that in, prostitution would probably easily be twice as deadly as the next deadliest job.
I'm not the other anons or trying to argue that prostitution isn't more dangerous, but you're muddling the argument with that last point, because then they could bring up all the fishermen who die of alcohol poisoning or heart attacks or kill themselves because their wives couldn't stand the smell of fish any longer and left them. No doubt that still wouldn't approach the final total but it's still all sort of irrelevant at this level of debate.

Good. Those unvirtuous women deserve to die; and so they go. The only good a woman has in her is her beauty or lack thereof, which is when she has to work hard to counteract that lacking. Women are good for making baby's but even that they are getting worse at by the day.

"Bitter indeed it is to be born a woman,
It is difficult to imagine anything so low!"

US of A is a shitty example given how it criminalizes them, leaving prostitutes the victims of the state AND abusers without any options to deal with it. Stick to countries where it's legal.

>nordicmodelnow.org/myths-about-prostitution/myth-punters-are-lonely-single-men/
>Punternet.com is a British website where ‘punters’ (sex buyers) post reviews of ‘escorts’
Escorts =/= average sex workers. Look at the average prices, it's way above what you pay at a whorehouse.

>I can’t get free sex, no how, no way, no sirree… 28.22%
>I can get free sex if I go out hunting, but I can’t be arsed… 23.31%
That's over 50% who can't get easy sex. People who can't easy get laid tend to have other failings, making them more likely to be criminals.

>Wait what now, we're supposed not to count in murderers who are "poor lonely sods"? They are murderers.
Sure but that's not the point. The average prostitute works with more dangerous people, making the job more dangerous. Same as you'd get with a drug dealer, cop or someone being a doorman in a club located in the ghetto. Escorts are more similar to other service workers since they tend to have wealthier customers.

"To the window, to the wall!
Til the sweat drop down my balls"

>NO U

No offense but you look really stupid when you take "prostitution is always like it is in the US" as axiomatic. In the US it is unregulated, underground, with immense numbers of human trafficking, with no other social net.
That way you can make a case for prostitution in the US being bad, but you can't make the case that prostitution is always bad.

In Germany, prostitution is legal, fairly well regulated, and the absolutey majority chooses to do it for luxury because there already is a social welfare net that covers EVERYONE and includes free housing, free healthcare, free food, free transportation, free cinema visits and more.
There still is a problem when organised crime is in control, but that only allows an argument against organised crime. That'd be like saying selling pizza is evil just because many stores are used for money laundering.

tl;dr you are really blinded by ideology. Dworkin herself made up false rape claims btw

"Woman is a pitfall—a pitfall, a hole, a ditch."

"Aw skeetch skeetch motherfucker!
Aw skeetch skeetch god damn!"

You are still missing the basic fucking point. Learn some reading comprehension.

>because their wives couldn't stand the smell of fish any longer and left them
Oh wow, I really laughed out loudly. You're not serious, are you? How is that comparable to:
>As adults in prostitution, 82% had been physically assaulted; 83% had been threatened with a weapon; 68% had been raped while working as prostitutes; and 84% reported current or past homelessness.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9698636

You consider
>I can get free sex if I go out hunting, but I can’t be arsed
to be a legitimate excuse to pay a woman to force yourself onto her? You're sick in the head. Even
>boo hoo I can't get laid ;_;
is not an excuse to pay to rape someone.

>The average prostitute works with more dangerous people, making the job more dangerous.
They are murdered by their pimps or their "clients".

>Stick to countries where it's legal.
Tell me what country and I'll provide you evidence that prostitution in that country is as shitty in any other.

Also, a lot of the US statistics are from Nevada where prostitution is legal.

>when you take "prostitution is always like it is in the US" as axiomatic
Which I did not do. I asked the user what country he's talking about, to which he didn't respond. If he did, I would have provided more relevant statistics.

>In the US it is unregulated, underground, with immense numbers of human trafficking, with no other social net.
It's not any different with poor East European women who are prostituted in big mega brothels in Berlin. Some of them are controlled by mafia like Hell's Angels.

>In Germany, prostitution is legal, fairly well regulated, and the absolutey majority chooses to do it for luxury
This is a lie.

>there already is a social welfare net that covers EVERYONE and includes free housing, free healthcare, free food, free transportation, free cinema visits and more
Yet it's often not enough if you have drug or alcohol addictions, or don't have the mental capacity to care for all the bureaucracy, like if you're an immigrant who can't even speak German.

From an estimated 400,000 prostitutes in Germany, 40 are registered.

That's not a typo. 40. From 400,000.

>Dworkin herself made up false rape claims
[citation needed]

>How is that comparable to
It's not about it being comparable, it's irrelevant because it's a question of lifestyles and not the job itself. I'm sure if you compared the stats for streetwalkers to escorts there'd be an even bigger skew, because of the nature of their lifestyles.

I'm not even opening the thread, but I'd just like to express my continued dismay at how these hamster wheels just keep spinning.

>it's a question of lifestyles and not the job itself
Only if you deny that the mental health issues of women in prostitution are usually intricately tied to the fact that they are in prostitution. (The causality works both ways.)

>if you compared the stats for streetwalkers to escorts
Of course certain types of prostitution are more dangerous than others.

>You are still missing the basic fucking point. Learn some reading comprehension.
Amazing rebuttal, you convinced me.

>If he did, I would have provided more relevant statistics
Give us the death rate for German prostitutes who work from home.

>Some of them are controlled by mafia like Hell's Angels.
I'm aware (the "pimps" and traffickers are almost exclusively non-white by the way ;^)) which is why I said you can make a point about organised crime, but not pretend that's inherent to prostitution. I'm the first to support you if you want to close the borders.

>Yet it's often not enough if you have drug or alcohol addictions
So maybe the problem is with addicts, not their job? Should the taxpayer pay for their addiction? Should they turn to crime like other addicts?
Rehab is also free in Germany so if they choose they prefer prostitution, I don't see how that's men's fault.

>40 are registered.
Which is because they will have to pay taxes if they do but are tax-free if they don't, are you retarded?
Registered is like voluntarily yelling your name and giving away free money. It has no effect on whether prostitution is generally legal, let alone whether you'd starve without it.

>[citation needed]
Even her friends said she made it up. And I know it's a mean argument but please just look at her. She also blamed the osteoporosis in her knees on that rape instead of her weight. It's victim culture at its finest.

>to be a legitimate excuse to pay a woman to force yourself onto her?
If we talk about legal prostitution in countries where the prostitute didn't get forced into it, say most in Germany. It's more of "you pay a consenting adult for a service", no different than buying a coffee or renting a Latin tutor.

>They are murdered by their pimps or their "clients".
Who are more dangerous people than your average Joe. Besides pimps are much rarer in civilized countries.

>Tell me what country and I'll provide you evidence that prostitution in that country is as shitty in any other.
Let's roll with Germany.

>It's not any different with poor East European women who are prostituted in big mega brothels in Berlin. Some of them are controlled by mafia like Hell's Angels.
Which is a problem with crime not prostitution per se.

> like if you're an immigrant who can't even speak German
Then you're unlikely to get a work permit, making it all illegal in the first place.

>From an estimated 400,000 prostitutes in Germany, 40 are registered.
I tried to find the source and only found an outdated anti prostitution site who use estimates from another anti prostitution site as source for the claim. Besides it doesn't tell us much in the first place. If you do it as a part-time job in college, why would you want to get taxed?

Taking away woman's choices to protect them is paternalistic shit worthy of conservative misogynists. Just don't.

>Only if you deny that the mental health issues of women in prostitution are usually intricately tied to the fact that they are in prostitution.
So (for Germany) either they were mentally ill and chose to become prostitutes, or they chose to become prostitutes and became mentally ill because of it - but both is the fault of men?

Also:
>well if we just take away peoples' free will and tell them what to do, they can't let themselves be exploited anymore. Sorry if there is some collateral
Nice attitude.

>In Germany, prostitution is legal, fairly well regulated, and the absolutey majority chooses to do it for luxury because there already is a social welfare net that covers EVERYONE and includes free housing, free healthcare, free food, free transportation, free cinema visits and more.

What a fucking liberal hellhole country. I bet they don't even yell at people for reading the wrong types of books.

Absolutely it does, but the same applies to any job to a degree. Have you ever spoken to someone from the merchant navy, or an oil rig worker? They're a weird lot. I'm not trying to demonise or denigrate sex workers, I'm just saying that when you expand your argument from purely what happens in the job to things around it too, you muddle the issue. If prostitution magically stopped tomorrow, those women would still be at risk.

>the absolutey majority chooses to do it for luxury because there already is a social welfare net that covers EVERYONE and includes free housing, free healthcare, free food, free transportation, free cinema visits and more

How fucking naive are you?

t. German

...

We don't even burn books anymore. The West is dying.

Also German here and this isn't wrong. Most do their job as voluntary as everybody else. Obviously your average prostitute doesn't wake up all hyped for another day sucking dick but neither does your average McDonalds worker. If I had the choice, I'd sure as fuck pick the job with more flexible hours and better pay but alas I am not a qt-girl and the market for boypussy doesn't seems as good.

>Then you're unlikely to get a work permit, making it all illegal in the first place.
Not that other person, but you realise all EU citizens are entitled to work throughout the EU? Not all "immigrants" are Syrian /pol/-boogeymen

?
>Der Regelsatz deckt den laufenden und einmaligen Bedarf für Ernährung, Kleidung, Körperpflege, Hausrat, Strom (ohne Heizung) und für die Bedürfnisse des täglichen Lebens sowie in vertretbarem Umfang auch für Beziehungen zur Umwelt und die Teilnahme am kulturellen Leben.
>Freizeit, Unterhaltung, Kultur: 37,88 Euro

And that's what you get without ever having worked a day. Currently 409 Euro, not including free housing etc.
It's about twice of what I spend every month.

>Give us the death rate for German prostitutes who work from home.
Such a statistic does not exist. Tell me if you have one.
Women who work with prostitutes in Germany know the situation to be dire. Pic related.

>you can make a point about organised crime, but not pretend that's inherent to prostitution
Men treating women like commodities to be bought and sold is inherent to prostitution.

>So maybe the problem is with addicts, not their job?
The immediate problem is men thinking it's acceptable to pay a woman to fuck her against her desire in a situation where she needs that money. An indirect problem is a system in which any person falls into such a situation in the first place.

>if they choose they prefer prostitution
You do not seem to understand how mental illnesses operate or how their treatment works. You don't go up to a big building with a big flashy "Rehab Center" text on it, enter it and talk to the receptionist, and someone waves a magic want that makes your addiction go away.

>I don't see how that's men's fault
You're asking me how it's a man's fault if he chooses to rape a woman who needs his money?

>Which is because they will have to pay taxes if they do but are tax-free if they don't
Wrong. It's because legalization does nothing to end the stigma so nobody wants to be a branded prostitute, and because most people in prostitution don't have the capacity to organize and bother with bureaucracy.

>Even her friends said she made it up.
Still [citation needed].
>She also blamed the osteoporosis in her knees on that rape
Also [citation needed].

I read most of Dworkin's works. I presume you spent time in circles of men who were ridiculing her, and think this means you know more about her life than me?

Not that person, but it's illegal either way regardless of nationality because it's Zuhälterei.

>The immediate problem is men thinking it's acceptable to pay a woman to fuck her against her desire in a situation where she needs that money. An indirect problem is a system in which any person falls into such a situation in the first place.
That's how every job works. You do something you don't really want to do because someone pays you for it. That's a problem of capitalism, not gender equality.

>It's more of "you pay a consenting adult for a service", no different than buying a coffee or renting a Latin tutor.
Would you let men anally and orally penetrate you for 200 bucks per session? You're perfectly capable of doing it, and it's easy money, so why don't you?

>where the prostitute didn't get forced into it, say most in Germany
How do you know most prostituted women in Germany aren't coerced into it?

>Who are more dangerous people than your average Joe. Besides pimps are much rarer in civilized countries.
What is your point? Pimps and punters are an inherent aspect of prostitution, and they're the main murderers of prostituted women. Ergo, prostitution is inherently dangerous.

>Which is a problem with crime not prostitution per se.
Except that such a brothel can easily operate out in the open while the criminal network behind it remains underground. How many years did it take police to storm the brothel in Germany that was controlled by the Hell's Angels? How many more of those brothels have relations to human traffickers, or pick up immigrant women who don't know their rights and manipulate them into prostitution in a way that's not even illegal?

>I tried to find the source
s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/welcome-to-paradise/
44 women.

>Taking away woman's choices
Do you also think illegalizing sweatshops is "taking away workers' rights"?

>but both is the fault of men?
There is a well-known child abuse-to-prostitution pipeline.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9698636
And the men who commit violence against them are, obviously, directly responsible for causing or worsening their condition.

>if we just take away peoples' free will and tell them what to do
90% of women in prostitution want out.

Sitting on my ass all day typing on a keyboard is not comparable to strange men fucking my mouth and anus, don't you think?
And for some reason the people I write code for don't try to kill me.

I could grow coffee or learn latin too, but that doesnt mean thats how I wanna make my money. But I dont bash people who do.
>85% of large scale coffee thefts happen to coffee growers!! Omg!!
Also Im not any of those other anons, ive been sitting back appreciating the debate until now but the whole "consenting rape" thing makes you sound retarded, prostitution has mant pitfalls im sure but if theres consent, its not rape

>You're perfectly capable of doing it, and it's easy money, so why don't you?
Honestly there just isn't a market for it.

>How do you know most prostituted women in Germany aren't coerced into it?
Don't most of us spend the first 20 years of our lives being coerced into getting jobs?

>Pimps and punters are an inherent aspect of prostitution, and they're the main murderers of prostituted women. Ergo, prostitution is inherently dangerous.
Cars are an inherent aspect of roads, and they're the main killers of pedestrians. Ergo, being a pedestrian is inherently dangerous. Everything is inherently dangerous. So what?

>Except that such a brothel can easily operate out in the open while the criminal network behind it remains underground.
So can a salad bar.

>Do you also think illegalizing sweatshops is "taking away workers' rights"?
Forcing factories to pay fair wages is more akin to legal and regulated prostitution than making it impossible. In this analogy the pimps are the people running the sweatshops.

It should be pretty obvious that the prostitutes who are the most common victims or rape or murder are those who are forced to operate outside of the law, for exactly that reason. They're easy to victimise because they've already been criminalised.

>Such a statistic does not exist. Tell me if you have one.
I don't, but I read the news daily and it's a big deal when a prostitute gets killed - and it happens, but it's seriously rare, less than a handful per year.

>Women who work with prostitutes in Germany know the situation to be dire
Look, this has been a huge debate in Germany so please don't act like you know better. There are very biased reports from the anti-prostitution activists and there are reports that say the complete opposite from the unions who work from home, do escorting, etc. as well as sex-positive feminists.
The truth will be somewhere in the middle.
But the point is, leading to your next argument:

>Men treating women like commodities to be bought and sold is inherent to prostitution.
.. the point is that you activists completely deny the possibility that a woman does this job voluntarily and enjoys it. You outright deny these peoples' existence and deny them their choice, too. It doesn't get more anti-feminist than that.
Even if it was a complete minority - it would prove you wrong on any evil being "inherent".
And don't give me this "bought and sold" bullshit. A man who sells his body and time to pick strawberries or clean a toilet is bought and sold just the same.

> to fuck her against her desire in a situation where she needs that money
You can't have your cake and eat it, too. If you enter a deal because you want the money, it's no longer against your desire. Everyone would rather get paid for their job without actually doing it. The mental gymnastics from you lmao.

>You're asking me how it's a man's fault if he chooses to rape a woman who needs his money?
Hahahaha you are so fucked up. If a woman comes up to me and tells me she'll give me a handjob if I pay her, then I'm raping her? So if my employer tells me to come in for work even though I'd rather stay in bed a bit longer, that's rape too?

>Still [citation needed]
theguardian.com/books/2005/apr/23/features.weekend
>Also [citation needed]
web.archive.org/web/20090604225001/http://www.newstatesman.com/200606190055

>I read most of Dworkin's works
>and think this means you know more about her life than me
If you think the best way to know a person is through an autobiography, I cannot help you.

>I presume you spent time in circles of men who were ridiculing her
Not at all, actually. I follow no ideology in this matter, I just can't stand nonsensical arguments like yours in this thread. I have nothing against feminists, just something against stupid people. Sometimes they happen to be the same.

>Sitting on my ass all day typing on a keyboard is not comparable to strange men fucking my mouth and anus, don't you think?
You have been coerced into selling your mind and body, so yes, yes it is comparable. Just because you have some weird puritan idea that sex is somehow magically different to other bodily functions doesn't make it so.
>And for some reason the people I write code for don't try to kill me.
They probably would if they were already operating outside of the law and they felt it was of some benefit to them.

>Sitting on my ass all day typing on a keyboard is not comparable to strange men fucking my mouth and anus, don't you think?
There are many, many prostitutes' accounts explaining how they prefer getting their mouth and anus fucked for good money to sitting in a grocery store all day for bad money.
So yeah, apparently it is comparable? I mean, unless you wanna take away those womens' voices and say they're stupid and don't know what they want. Which is kind of anti-feminist ;^)

>90% of women in prostitution want out.
1. That's a number from biased activists.
2. Even if it was true, it meant that prostitution is working well enough for 10% of women and is not inherently terrible.
Go make a poll about how many high-profile lawyers want out of their job during their first year at a big firm.

>Would you let men anally and orally penetrate you for 200 bucks per session?
Hell yeah. I am pretty minimalist so as long I can get NEETbucks I am perfectly fine with it and not really looking for more money. It's definitely better than any of the jobs I have to apply for just doesn't seem to be as easy to get into. If I'd have to choose between a shitty paid 40h a week job and getting fucked in the ass and sucking nasty dick for half as long, sucking dick it is. Point me into the right direction.

>How do you know most prostituted women in Germany aren't coerced into it?
How do you know they are? We can always read interviews from people who are pro/against it and look at statistics that confirms that X amount of them are forced but there is nothing indicating that most are.

> Pimps are an inherent aspect of prostitution
They aren't. Specially with internet there are more and more ways to organize it all yourself.

>How many more of those brothels have relations to human traffickers, or pick up immigrant women who don't know their rights and manipulate them into prostitution in a way that's not even illegal?
We don't know but either way it's an issue with criminal enterprises. Obviously some branches are easier to abuse for them but that doesn't mean the sector itself is the problem.

>s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/welcome-to-paradise/
Not the best source either. Besides, there are the already mentioned logical reasons. It's not like most prostitutes pick it as a career and for a parttime job, you'd try to maximize your earnings.

>sweatshops
Create a situation where there are no alternatives for the workers and affect the entire market. Prostitution is just another option in civilized countries.

Your position doesn't work in reality even if it were correct. Prostitution isn't going to disappear, by pushing it into illegality, you're only taking more rights and protection away from the women. The aim should be to increase protection for them and break away with the stigma.

>Sitting on my ass all day typing on a keyboard is not comparable to strange men fucking my mouth and anus, don't you think?
How is it any different? You give your most valuable resource, time to serve others. Whether it's writing code or sucking dick. Besides the alternative is usually not writing code in a nice office but doing a shitty paid job for people who treat you like shit and pay you even worse.

I somehow doubt you're going to get through to her with logic, she's too far gone.
>It's rape even when I say I want it because I'm doing it for money so part of me doesn't super enjoy it

We've got this far without descending into ad hominem, there's no need for that.

So not wanting to get anally and orally penetrated by strange men is just an arbitrary preference, right? You would do it without batting an eye if you didn't have many other choices?

>OMG ARE YOU BASHING WOMEN WHO ~~CHOOSE~~ TO PROSTITUTE?!?
You're a fucking idiot drone who's been brainwashed by sex industry shills mate.
This is like capitalists talking about how socialism "infantilizes workers".

>consent
Is a meme. Economic coercion is not meaningful consent.

>Honestly there just isn't a market for it.
There is. Lots of men like to fuck other men in the ass. Create an account on a few gay dating apps and start advertising. You *will* find clients.

>Don't most of us spend the first 20 years of our lives being coerced into getting jobs?
Flipping burgers isn't getting your mouth and anus penetrated by strange men's penises.

>huge non-sequitur to avert from the fact that pimps and punters murder prostitutes
Disingenuous.

>So can a salad bar.
You're just jumping the shark now.

>Forcing factories to pay fair wages
The correct analogy would be to force slave masters to pay "fair wages" to their slaves, as men in prostitution have power over the bodily orifices of the "workers". It's physical domination.

>They're easy to victimise because they've already been criminalised.
They're easy to victimize because men feel they are subhuman and treat them like objects.

Internet arguments rarely change the minds of the direct participants either way but discussing it with someone who shares my position (feminism) but looks at things completely different is way more interesting than dealing with the average /pol/fag for example.

>Economic coercion is not meaningful consent.
Applies to every job.

>Flipping burgers isn't getting your mouth and anus penetrated by strange men's penises.
Due your own perception that something sexual makes it different due giving it some special value. Practically it's the same shit. You offer your body and time for money.

>You're a fucking idiot drone who's been brainwashed by sex industry shills mate.
Nice rebuttal of his point. You're still denying these womens' existence and voice. Just insulting him doesn't mean you don't have to answer for that.

>Economic coercion is not meaningful consent.
So every single person working a shitty minimum wage job is being raped..?

> Lots of men like to fuck other men in the ass. Create an account on a few gay dating apps and start advertising.
"Hey guys I know it doesn't get easier than finding a sex date on grindr but how about we make it more fun and you pay me money for what everyone does free" At least you're consistent in your poor understanding of economics.

>Flipping burgers isn't getting your mouth and anus penetrated by strange men's penises.
Absolutely no one enjoys cleaning toilets or working underground in a mine. Plenty of people enjoy fucking strangers.

Please, go to a therapist. What you pass off as "compassion" for women and a "legitimate" hatred for men is nothing but pathologic and the length to which you go to circumvent logic and keep your emotions alive is insane.

>Due your own perception that something sexual makes it different due giving it some special value
This has been the point of the sex-wars we had decades ago already and even then people called Dworkin retarded and ideological.
She just decided to be on the sex-negative side which obviously no healthy heterosexual woman can agree with so the only way forward was to be even more radical in her mental gymnastics.
>If you feel horny or find a man attractive, THATS JUST BECAUSE THE PATRIARCHY BRAINWASHED YOU

>when a prostitute gets killed
>less than a handful per year
That's the cases you get to hear. So you know that a handful of prostitutes get killed yearly. You understand this is done by their pimps or the punters. Now tell me in what other "job" your manager or clients are likely to kill you, ever?

>this has been a huge debate in Germany so please don't act like you know better
What's that supposed to mean now? There has also been a huge debate over immigration politics, and the decision was to take in more immigrants. Are people not allowed to criticize that, too? This is just appeal to authority.

>very biased reports from the anti-prostitution activists
Prostitution abolitionists tend to work directly with those women in prostitution who have it worst, and they know that the efforts of legalization will do nothing to better the circumstances of those women.
Those "empowered sex workers," "sex positive feminists" etc. are more or less industry shills and privileged drones. They don't give a fuck about immigrant women, women out in the streets, or women who have to fuck ten men a day to break even.

>completely deny the possibility that a woman does this job voluntarily and enjoys it
Wrong. What we're pointing out is that statistically, prostitution is hell. Finding a few prostitutes who do it willingly is like pointing at specific parts of the world where the climate has been cooling down and saying it disproves the theory of global warming.

>If you enter a deal because you want the money, it's no longer against your desire.
So all economic exploitation is ethical, got it.

>If a woman comes up to me and tells me she'll give me a handjob if I pay her, then I'm raping her?
Assuming she is doing this out of desperation, then yes, you are raping her. You would need to be the lowest of the low and a sadistic scum not to realize this.

>So if my employer tells me to come in for work even though I'd rather stay in bed a bit longer, that's rape too?
Is your employer fucking your mouth?
No, your employer is not fucking your mouth.

>theguardian.com/books/2005/apr/23/features.weekend
She's saying that the rape was the catalyzer to her condition getting worse. Using this to ridicule her really suits the rest of your personality.

>web.archive.org/web/20090604225001/http://www.newstatesman.com/200606190055
I have never heard of Charlotte Raven.
I have heard of some of Dworkin's best friends, such as Nikki Craft, being angry at Stoltenberg and others not believing Dworkin.

>I just can't stand nonsensical arguments
You can't stand someone suggesting that maybe your mentality, which says that fucking a woman in desperation, is the mentality of a rapist.

>Create an account on a few gay dating apps and start advertising. You *will* find clients.
There are three male prostitutes in my area, as opposed to around 100 female ones at any given time. There is no demand for it.

>Flipping burgers isn't getting your mouth and anus penetrated by strange men's penises.
True, the latter pays much better.

>Disingenuous
No, accurate.

>You're just jumping the shark now.
Any sort of business can be a front for criminals. Your one anecdote means nothing.

>The correct analogy would be to force slave masters to pay "fair wages" to their slaves, as men in prostitution have power over the bodily orifices of the "workers". It's physical domination.
That's retarded and I think the thriving dominatrix community would like to have a word with you.

>They're easy to victimize because men feel they are subhuman and treat them like objects.
And your bosses don't think of you and the men in your division as replaceable drones? Please. It's easy to victimise a prostitute because what she's doing is unregulated; she's breaking the law and as such is afraid to turn to authorities for help. Nobody knows who she's gone off with in a car because she's ashamed to tell anyone what she's doing. If you regulate it, if you make it easy for her to stay safe, then the problem diminishes. As opposed to your weird idea where you re-educate the entire male population of the planet into believing that there's something unique and special when a woman has sex as opposed to any other sort of physical labour.

Well, centuries of men oppressing and shaming female sexuality sure beared some fruit if some radical feminists go after sex positive women. What a clusterfuck.

>You have been coerced into selling your mind and body, so yes, yes it is comparable.
No, user, sitting on one's ass and typing on a keyboard is not comparable to getting penetrated by strange men.

That's only your sex liberal fantasy world.

>There are many, many prostitutes' accounts explaining how they prefer getting their mouth and anus fucked for good money to sitting in a grocery store all day for bad money.
There are many, many ex-prositutes' accounts of how they justified their situation through a ton of mental gymnastics so as not to have to face the truth of their condition.

>So yeah, apparently it is comparable?
Then let men fuck your ass for money. Just do it. It's easy money, isn't it? Why don't you do it?

Why do NONE of the people who defend prostitution ever follow up to accept getting fucked in the mouth and in the ass for money? Why?

For some reason, they only like it when it happens to other people.

Make an account on a few gay dating sites and sites like Craigslist and do it then.

>Prostitution isn't going to disappear, by pushing it into illegality, you're only taking more rights and protection away from the women.
This must be why prostituted women in Sweden have it worse than in full-decrim countries.
Oh wait.

I don't have much more time for this thread.

>a handful of prostitutes get killed yearly. You understand this is done by their pimps or the punters. Now tell me in what other "job" your manager or clients are likely to kill you, ever?
I know you've already been over the X in 100,000 deaths of prostitutes compared to male dominated jobs, but have you looked at the actual hard numbers? As in, how many oil rig workers, coal miners, ice road drivers, merchant navymen and whatever else die every year?

>Prostitution abolitionists tend to work directly with those women in prostitution who have it worst, and they know that the efforts of legalization will do nothing to better the circumstances of those women.
This is a completely unsubstantiated statement.
>Those "empowered sex workers," "sex positive feminists" etc. are more or less industry shills and privileged drones. They don't give a fuck about immigrant women, women out in the streets, or women who have to fuck ten men a day to break even.
They wouldn't have to fuck ten men a day to break even if it was regulated and there was a minimum wage.

>You can't stand someone suggesting that maybe your mentality, which says that fucking a woman in desperation, is the mentality of a rapist.
>Assuming she is doing this out of desperation, then yes, you are raping her.
If I'm flipping burgers out of desperation am I being raped?

>Is your employer fucking your mouth?
>No, your employer is not fucking your mouth.
Blah blah puritan ethic. You're worse than hardcore catholics.

>No, user, sitting on one's ass and typing on a keyboard is not comparable to getting penetrated by strange men.
You keep making this statement without explaining why you think it's different.

>Why do NONE of the people who defend prostitution ever follow up to accept getting fucked in the mouth and in the ass for money?
Because it's a lot harder doing it as a man and earning some money. It's similar story in porn, where the average young woman can easy jump in while as a man you'll have a hard time to get in (pun intended) and even harder time to make serious money.

Prostitution is simply not the easy go to job for easy money for males sadly. Blame the lagging sexual liberation for it. Shit like grinder and most dating apps will ensure that you'll get a dick in the ass, not that you get paid.

>This must be why prostituted women in Sweden have it worse than in full-decrim countries.
Where is your data that they have it better?

>Now tell me in what other "job" your manager or clients are likely to kill you, ever?
Cop, psychiatrist, and every job with a nonhuman "client" they have to deal with that will kill them regularly, such as firemen, oilrig workers, machinists and so on.

>What's that supposed to mean now?
You misunderstand. My point is that because of how big of a debate it was, I have heard all the biased accounts from every side and know when you're presenting a biased activist account. I know the ones who say "all prostitution is forced" and I know the ones who say "actually, by now the majority of prostitutes works e.g. from home as a part-time job to get some extra and is enjoying it".

>Those "empowered sex workers," "sex positive feminists" etc. are more or less industry shills and privileged drones
I mean that's one way to deal with everyone who disagrees with you.
"No, you can't be happy with your job, it's always rape, you must be an industry shill and I will make sure you will lose your job because other people have it bad"

>What we're pointing out is that statistically, prostitution is hell
And we're pointing out that that's true, but not inherent to prostitution but caused by a number of factors that you could get rid of without getting rid of prostitution altogether. You cannot even grasp what we're arguing about.

>So all economic exploitation is ethical, got it.
1. "not ethical" is not the same as "rape"
2. As I said, there is a safety net in Germany that makes it absolutely impossible for anyone to starve involuntarily. "Fuck me or starve" is not a reality. Even foreigners get this welfare, even people without documents.

>Assuming she is doing this out of desperation, then yes, you are raping her
If she was starving, you could make that case. If she makes the decision that having sex with me is better than living in a shitty government-issued apartment, then that's not even close to rape.

>Using this to ridicule her really suits the rest of your personality
Yeah you can call me cynical but if a fat person blames a likely made-up rape for the fact that our bones are not supposed to support so much fat, I'm gonna ridicule that.

> fucking a woman in desperation
Yeah yeah the thousands of middle class college students showing up for GirlsDoPorn are so desperate that it equals rape

>2. As I said, there is a safety net in Germany that makes it absolutely impossible for anyone to starve involuntarily. "Fuck me or starve" is not a reality. Even foreigners get this welfare, even people without documents.
It's far from UBI, so while starving itself takes some work, you can easy get in a desperate position where welfare massively cut.

Most jobs are not voluntary though so it's weird to use it just against prostitution.

>Why do NONE of the people who defend prostitution ever follow up to accept getting fucked in the mouth and in the ass for money? Why?
1. Because no one says it's the best job ever, they just say it's not always worse than slaving away in an underground mine
2. You seem to have a lot of issues with your own sexuality if "getting fucked in the mouth" is straight from a horror movie for you. Most prostitutes would prefer it to vaginal sex, too.
3. You have no idea how many men would happily be callboys if the demand was there. Unfortunately, female demand isn't there and gay demand is pedophiliac in nature more often than not.

>I don't have much more time for this thread.
Maybe use that little time then to take a deep breath and wonder if it isn't possible that it's you who is wrong and not everyone else.

fpbp

Hahahahaha consenting rape. Next youll be saying "nonlethal murder"

tl;dr: Prostitution is a side-effect of economic exploitation and cannot be rationally analyzed in terms of identity politics, whether liberal or conservative, because both look for solutions in terms of individual agency or essentialist group characteristics ("masculinity")

t. fascist drumpfkin