All YA literature is awf-

But isn't killing yourself immoral towards those who invest themselves in you?

>suicide is second highest cause of death in men age 14-40
>its about a woman

i am shocked and appalled

I mean that the actions before someone kills themselves, they aren't just bullying. Usually the victim engages in some bullying or other such things, for various reasons. This book is entirely "poor girl is attacked and destroyed by people who don't realize."

The theme is understanding, reflecting. A girl who so Clearly understood this and used it to send 13 tapes to people would not have killed herself.

...

>lacks common sense
>Mary sue
Lacking common sense is a predominant female trait, but I believe it's enough to exclude her from being a 100% Mary sue.

-ul.
Do your part and let this shitpost expire.

uhh women kill themselves too?

Its a fucking masturbatory fantasy for sad teenagers written by a male [and no, this isn't me going 'YOU'RE A WHITE MALE' I'm saying he, as a male, clearly has no fucking idea what the teenage girl expierence is actually like and I say this as another male who has only the basic understanding of what being a teenage girl must be like -- teen boys and girls have vastly different expierences with bullying and he created the most cliche, stereotypical ideal of what a teenage girl could go through] and does pretty much everything suicide experts tell you not to do when you write a book or about suicide: namely romanticize it. All of her problems were environmental and would've gone away after high school, except maybe from the emotional trauma of rape. The author almost explicitly makes it so everyone goes 'omg she was such a genius and why didn't we appreciate her' and the netflix series amplifies this even worse. I read this for a book club in high school and never showed up because all I could've done is trash it the entire time. It's garbage on so many levels and actually damaging to suicidal people. Honestly, it'd be easier to say what isn't wrong with it. I'd go so far as to question if the author expierenced any depression or suicidal thoughts of his own, at all, ever, and bothered to read any material on what a suicidal expierence is like.

If she was a real person I could sympathize, but as a fictional creation all I can think is what a dumb cunt she is for creating a permnant solution to temporary problems.

>suicide experts

>permanent solution to temporary problems
I fucking hate this phrase and I hate you for using it
It's a permanent solution for all the problems you have ever had, have or will have, and I strongly advocate it for you and narcissistic teenage girls

There's no real reason to advocate suicide. Life sucks, we all know it, but we are genetically programmed to keep going anyway. Also, it's not a solution. You can't possibly say that if you starve to death trying to solve the puzzle - you had somehow "solved" it. Death is inevitable, so why rushing to it? Also, your consiencous existence can't really die. It'll collapse into singularity of pain and regrets, continuing for all eternity.

If you claim to support the elimination of suffering, why wouldn't you endorse suicide? As an individual I believe that I should embrace suffering to strengthen myself, but I don't really care about strengthening others
>it'll collapse into a singularity of pain and regrets, continuing for all eternity
wew lad, are you a Christian or something?

>I'm saying he, as a male, clearly has no fucking idea what the teenage girl expierence is actually like
Top kek, you want to know how I know that you're female?

Prove it

>and does pretty much everything suicide experts tell you not to do when you write a book or about suicide: namely romanticize it.

He doesn't have a moral obligation to make it realistic. It's just fiction.

>why wouldn't you endorse suicide
The problem is not whether the suicide is right thing or not. The problem is that it's impossible to actually kill yourself, unless you got some kind of an illness. So it's useless to promote some kind of view on suicide. Sick people will kill themselves because their safeguards had failed. Normal people will find some shallow rationalisation like you did. The point is - it does not matter whether you believe that suicide is a solution or not - it's not a concious choice (contrary to what people are lead to believe), but if you think that suicide is a best option and you are not following your beliefs, than you become a weakminded hypocrite, if you are a follower of a voluntarism, that is. And since people do not like feeling hypocritical, and most of them endorse in the illusion of free will, they would create a whole bunch of lies to pursuade themselves that it's not an option. This takes even more absurd and ridiculous form, when people try to argue that bad is good and the existential nightmare we call life is actually a literal paradise on earth, and we should be grateful that we live in one part of it and not in the other.
>are you a Christian or something?
Jesus christ almighty, no! Heavens forbid! I'm not a least bit a religious person. I guess this can be pretty tough to understand, but this basically adress the problem "can the concience register the loss of concience".

This is the kind of fucking excuse that has lead to the sad state a lot of contemporary art is at. 'lol its just fiction bro stop taking it so srs'

No, fuck that. An artist has to take responsibility for his creation. Especially when taking on a subject as serious as suicide. This isn't American Psycho where its trying to commentate on consumerism and clearly his mindless killing isn't to be imitated. This is a young adult novel, created for and explicitly for the purpose of young adults reading it. It creates a utopian fantasy for those most vunerable to suicide: that if they off themselves everyone will realize they were right all along!

This is like a person who sells a malfunctioning piece of equipment that may hurt the user claiming he has no moral obligation, or the bartender saying he has no moral obligation when selling alcohol. They do, and denying they do destroys any meaning art might have.

A realistic depiction of teenage suicide would be boring as fuck. What's the point of writing something that nobody would read?

It's a piece of shit.

I'm telling you as a suicidal person who has been in and out of antidepressants more times that my psychiatrist would have like to.

If you want a legit book on sucide read "Suicide" by Edouard Levé.

>earning money is just boring as fuck
>what's the point of wageslaving when you could just rob people?

That's another sad excuse of a lazy artist. Any artist, any DECENT artist can make the most mundane everyday things enthralling as fuck. Look at the popularity of the slice of life genre in manga and anime. You create good characters and make people care about their situations. It's called WRITING. Ulysses is about a day in Dublin, Ireland. It's regarded as one of the greatest works of the 20th century.

I think you're just baiting at this point.

Cause for robing people you get raeped in prison? Dunno.

>it's impossible to actually kill yourself, unless you got some kind of an illness
How convenient for you. I bet you'd judge a suicide was mentally based on the mere fact of their suicide.

Explain why there are so many people if they don't have a suconcious desire to live and survive. Also, yes, my set of beliefs exist solely for the sake of making me feel good about myself, what's wrong?

There is no real reason to condemn suicide either. Life is not about figuring out a puzzle, its not about wining some kind of spiteful battle against existence itself. You can make this your purpose, sure, but dont force the ideals you try to hide your weakness and uncertainty behind on the rest of us. The person who has to solve the puzzle in your example would indeed not have solved it. But they would be freed from the exercise regardless. If death is inevitable why prolong the suffering leading up to it?
>your concious existence cant really die
I would like a reasoning for believing this. As far as Im concerned the other side could just be non-existence. Im personally looking forward to death, ideally as a full-stop to the constant suffering existence inflicts on us but Im thrilled to learn what awaits us either way. If life gets too troubling or dull you can bet that Ill help myself.

Nobody desputes that the desire to life exists but that some people actually do kill themselves should tell you that maybe this desire is not warranted but rather a great delusion inflicted upon humankind by itself.
Your reasoning is self-fulfilling. A person who kills themselves according to you is "ill" whatever that means. So the reasons of this person do not apply to a "normal" human being. However a person who has suicidal thoughts exists somewhere in the middle of these two groups. They are struggling for a possible great number of reasons with both killing themselves but also with staying alive. Wouldnt this person also be "ill"? Either way, doesnt the fact that people do kill themselves tell us a lot about human existince? Are illnesses not a part of life? Of course not every person will experience the urge to die but does this make the feelings of people who do less valid? If someone does have suicidal thoughts and is, according to you, ill shouldnt they just kill themselves?

>life sucks, we all know it

I'm not judging here and realize that this may be the case for some. However, i still wonder considering this idea is generally accepted around here, why do people agree that "life just sucks"

With every good moment there is a bad, and honestly, i'm just along for the ride.

>creating a permnant solution to temporary problems.

Veeky Forums attracts the despondent, depressed, and outcast types. There are exceptions, but, even the "normies" tend to be the failed normies.

>except maybe from the emotional trauma of rape.
that's a big except though

Every YA fiction book ever written is so shit. Why the fuck is this thread going? Who gives a shit if some weak faggot pulls the trigger?

You wanna know how I know women don't like you?
Yo that shit would've hit so hard. If the book was basically a study of a horrible self-hating depression sparked by sexual assault that eventually lead to suicide. Like if it focused entirely on the sexual assault and its psychological effects or whatever.

Is the book worth reading? I don't usually read YA fiction but I really enjoyed the series. If the book has competent prose I might pick it up.

there was blood in my semen this weekend. life just sucks m8.

she just kept getting fatter as the season went on :o/

He's right though.
Just because you can't envision a better life, doesn't mean one doesn't exist.

And just because someone says depression/suicidal thoughts is a temporary problem, it doesn't mean it is. In fact, statistically it's a life long problem that most people never get over, or if they do it reoccurs.

I'm 31 now and been depressed my whole life. It doesn't get better, it just gets different. 20s were more turmoil, 30s is more numb.

t. hkv wizard with no known family, crippling anxiety and zero friends.

ey I had that once, ended up being chlamydia

disgusting. It romanticizes suicide.

I'm so it isn't that. On the upside get to explain to a urologist that I'm a wizard.

It's kind of romantic though

I have no interest in watching this sub-par show but this scene was incredibly well done. Fucking nauseating

Just watch the last three episodes

Not as nauseating and scenes with Tony in it

>it's not a concious choice
shut the fuck up

>anime and ulysses
>good
pick one

>if you claim to endorse lessening suffering, why not endorse suicide?
Because it causes a shit ton of suffering. It's like if a kid is losing a game of Monopoly then they flip the table... No, they didn't win the game, and now someone else has to clean up the mess.

boo hoo, maybe they should kill themselves too and then everyone will be happy

anime and ulysses

>mfw the author goes on Veeky Forums and did the smart thing by creating a novel pandering specifically for teenage girls to make money
>endless threads about writing a John Green esque novel got to someone and he did it successfully

>muh utility
people who actually off themselves (not talking about 'cry for attention' suicide attempts) usually just can't deal with it anymore. there's only so much a human being is able to take. it's not like they had a choice to begin with

This. Actually there was a thing on the radio the other day about an epidemic of male suicides as they get older. Like men in their late 30s and early 40s.

Can suicide ever be rational? If so, can it ever be both rational and moral?

>Can suicide ever be rational?
of course

>If so, can it ever be both rational and moral?
now that's a difficult question

The dialogue in the show was mostly fucking awful
Is the book as bad?

Perhaps it would be a better question to ask if suicide can ever not be immoral. Or if suicide is an inherently immoral act.

this is going to be me, I can't imagine living a day past 50

from what moral basis are you examining it?

He has succeeded in killing himself twice, better listen to what he says.

Contrarian 4chanists are the worst
>WHAT YOU SAID SOMETHING RELATABLE AND NORMAL, GOTTA BE A FUCKING DICK NOW

>STOP DISAGREEING WITH THE MAJORITY YOU LOSER!

Bryce did nothing wrong

>rape is not wrong
edgy

The selfish suicide explained by durkheim, talks about how the isolation generates in people's minds the persepcion that no one cares about you, so nothing connects you to society and the world, and one in that situation thinks it's okay To rationally and morally commit suicide. But whenever someone commits suicide all their environment does not understand, and they wonder why they reached that unconscious point what they felt and then do it as an immoral fact. Morality always depends on where you look.

What did he say?

>implying its rape in the animal kingdom

>But whenever someone commits suicide all their environment does not understand
[citation needed]

>unconscious point
just stop. suicide can be a totally rational decision. this is not some edgelord's opinion only, many cultures deem suicide as justifiable and even honorable sometimes

>Get into a hot tub naked with a guy and flirt with him
Come on

?

>flirting is consent

>Get into hot tub naked with a guy

yeah she totally consented bro, that's why bryce had to physically coerce her into having sex
you fucking virgins sometimes...

>that's why bryce had to physically coerce her into having sex
She threw herself on top of him

Hannah's a cunt she deserved it

>Also, your consiencous existence can't really die. It'll collapse into singularity of pain and regrets, continuing for all eternity.
What the fuck is this bullshit?

It could also be said that just because you envision a better life, doesn't mean one exist.

In the highscholl a friend committed suicide and all my friends and I felt, as I said, we did not understand, we understood he was sad because we knew that he has physical and family problems, but getting to the point of suicide we could not understand. As I said, I meant the selfish suicide of Durkhein and not the others who are rational for their environment.

stop victim blaming

>I'm a hypocrite
fuck off retard, suicide is a good idea for you but not for me because my life actually has value

It's not unreasonable to think women sometimes want to be raped, even if it is not fully consciously:
>most women report rape fantasies
>women are known to frequently orgasm from rape
>it's a perfectly valid reproductive strategy
When you think about it from an evolutionary perspective it makes sense.

it's kinda funny how these teenage shows have a go at turning high school jocks into villains
in my experience, chads are pretty decent people

>Let me strip naked and get into a hot tub alone with a naked guy
She's retarded

Fuck man, I can't wait until then. Tell me, are you someone without kids, or who says that you will never have kids?

You first.

I'll be 50 in 30 years so I might change my mind by then :^)
I would like to have many children to continue my legacy, that would probably change my mind

Haven't gotten there yet. Appointment is in two weeks.

I understand how someone not being sympathetic and mentioning all that stuff out loud could be a dick move. But is anyone seriously denying that all of these potentially could be factors as to why the victim is in the situation? I could understand not outright saying in the interest of the victim's well-being, but to outright deny the reality is like transcendent levels of dishonesty.

>constant suffering
what do you mean by this? people say this all the time and I feel like they either don't understand what the word "constant" or the word "suffering" means

>suicide experts
hmm
I agree with your criticism but fiction should have free reign to be irresponsible if it wishes. It was probably just conceit and ignorance on the author's part though, if he really intended it to speak to teen girls or whatever.

It means they are suffering continuously. No breaks to their pain.