Liberalism general (Libertarians welcome, just please don't be a /pol/ tier brainlet)

"as many people as possible should have as much say as is feasible over the direction their lives will take."

Liberalism, as an ideology, was birthed by the British empirical philosopher John Locke, who's ideas resonated with a disenfranchised European populace tired of the unfairness and lack of freedom they perceived monarchies were responsible for; a government, according to Locke, ought to be run by and for the people, not a king or queen who's right to rule was based in illogical religious sentiment.

Liberalism as an ideology has fluctuated throughout the years but most of its tenents still stand today; in the 21st century, liberals declare support for:
Globalized free markets
Individual rights
Multiculturalism
Social equality

It's an objective fact that liberal democracy has been proven to work and has resulted in more happiness and prosperity compared to its 20th century ideological critics, fascism and Marxism.

What books by liberals have you read recently, Veeky Forums?

Recently read The New Odyssey by Patrick Kingsley.
Journalism leaves me pretty flaccid.

Liberalism in the 21st century is communism with Walmart.

Nice, I really like how fucking brain dead you are bro keep up the good work

Where do I start with Locke?

The true successor to liberalism in the 20th and 21st century is libertarian socialism.The only way to reconcile individual rights with social equality is to have a non-hierarchical system of free associations with workers owning and controlling the means of production with the absence of any nation state.

Liberalism is a goddamn joke. I hate liberals even more than I do right wingers - at least they have the strength of conviction. Liberals are just wussy centrists that abstract the problems of life behind flawed economics so they don't have to deal with the human consequences. JUST GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY BOARD REEEEEEEEEEE SAGE

>marxist/radical leftist telling a liberal his economics are "flawed"
Epic, simply fucking epic
Second treatise if you already didn't read that in high school

Liberalism will be eradicated within the next twenty years, it's simply too antiquated to deal with the modern world.

Not that Kind of Girl, by Lena Dunham. It really enlightened me on important topics like 'bros' and 'white privilege'

Capitalism is a race in which people start at different points and those who start ahead actually have the best engines.

Good one m8.

>it's a "leftist critiques the market economy while offering 0 real alternatives that actually work" episode

haha, that's right bro all we need to do is seize them means of productions and we'll be in a utopia and sheet

FUCK OFF LIBERALS REEEEEEEEE!!! This is a literature board, take it to /pol/ if you wanna discuss liberalism, Veeky Forums is NOT becoming Lib Central, it belongs to the leftists

Laughing carlyle,jpg

>I say, it is the everlasting privilege of the foolish to be governed by the wise; to be guided in the right path by those who know it better than they. This is the first "right of man;" compared with which all other rights are as nothing,—mere superfluities, corollaries which will follow of their own accord out of this; if they be not contradictions to this, and less than nothing! To the wise it is not a privilege; far other indeed. Doubtless, as bringing preservation to their country, it implies preservation of themselves withal; but intrinsically it is the harshest duty a wise man, if he be indeed wise, has laid to his hand. A duty which he would fain enough shirk; which accordingly, in these sad times of doubt and cowardly sloth, he has long everywhere been endeavoring to reduce to its minimum, and has in fact in most cases nearly escaped altogether. It is an ungoverned world; a world which we flatter ourselves will henceforth need no governing. On the dust of our heroic ancestors we too sit ballot-boxing, saying to one another, It is well, it is well! By inheritance of their noble struggles, we have been permitted to sit slothful so long. By noble toil, not by shallow laughter and vain talk, they made this English Existence from a savage forest into an arable inhabitable field for us; and we, idly dreaming it would grow spontaneous crops forever,—find it now in a too questionable state; peremptorily requiring real labor and agriculture again. Real "agriculture" is not pleasant; much pleasanter to reap and winnow (with ballot-box or otherwise) than to plough!

>it belongs to the leftists
So that's why it's such shitty place to discuss art.

I think you forgot to ask a certain person for permission.

>a person that points to a problem without solving is something I can disregard and pretend the problem will solve by itself or that no criticism was made

comrade, if you don't like commies we should jut invent something else together, but first you have to realize things cant be the way they are

>but first you have to realize things cant be the way they are
>things can't be the most peaceful, prosperous, and conducive to liberty they've ever been
lol

I would call myself a liberal, but Rawls is "totalitarianism with a human face" tier.

He's what happens when you abstract morality away from practical reality, as if it's some kind of weird off-brand metaphysics - as if justice is floating around out there in the clouds, rather than being a contingent and concrete institution for the proper organization of society.

>but Rawls is "totalitarianism with a human face" tier.
You have my attention. Go on.

The problems with critiques of capitalism is that they never get you anywhere. It's just empty critique that serves no purpose.

How will libertarian socialism work with Islam? You guys gonna pay jizya for the right to exist (since you're basically crypto-christians) or what?

Yes they can be. The neoliberal synthesis is a pragmatic and legitimate way for economies to be run in the 21st century. The United States and Western Europe will literally N E V E R go into an economic slump like what happened in the early 20th century. Marx's critique of capitalism being 'self-destructive' has no basis in reality, like most of his other writings
>WTF?? RAWLS HAS SUBJECTIVE BELIEFS REGARDING JUSTICE, LITERALLY ONE OF THE MOST CONTENTIOUS TOPICS OF ALL TIME???? TOTALITARIAN REEEEEEEEE

Veeky Forums belongs to the leftists, /pol/ to the nazis, and the libertarians, always at their heel; and the liberals - well, the liberals have reddit. so kindly do go back to whence you came

The simplest critique of Rawls is that his vision of justice requires a totalitarian government.

>The simplest critique of Rawls is that his vision of justice requires a totalitarian government.
You have retained my attention. Go on.

Just read Intellectuals and Society.

user, come on, it's not that hard, don't pretend you don't get it because you do. The bigger the numbers a company, country or person has, the more chances it has to succeed, the more tools it has at its disposal. Democracy is nothing because electing the person you want becomes the goal and a big company can finance campaigns and elect people, change legislation that would hurt their business, get in agreements with other big companies and merge, etc. To capitalize something makes it disposable, there are churches charging people to get to god as we speak, it's all different levels of prostitution. No one can even be held guilty, because it's not about corruption or an issue that is like a tumor you can cut it out, it's the very way things get organized around money. The logic of it tends and will always tend to that. Capitalism does not fail, it succeeds always and it kind of softens its own mark, but continues to grow the intensity of the hardship people have to endure. It softens because the middle class is getting amazing entertainment, news are handled to you the way you like it, your facebook timeline is just like you. A company that does not profit more than the others, will fail, everyone is seeking more. It's cheaper to pay workers where they are cheap and gain little, so you favour the worst conditions possible. You cut 100 trees and then the government forces you to replant them, so you get a cheaper substitute, plants 40 of them and reward yourself with a green beautiful logo saying how good your company are. Syria sucks, NK sucks, but people don't talk of Congo, Bangladesh or China itself, because they are part of the system, whereas the others are just its reactions. Native people everywhere are getting literally killed just like, you know, any war, it's not an euphemism.

Profit means to take more than what you give. There is no way to turn the game and it doesn't matter what the content is or who is playing it.

In the past, people who realized how shit this was had the idea to just fight them and them create a state to say people can't profit from one another. But it is a very fragile structure, money continues to have a role and the provisional hierarchy cannot survive long enough for it to dissolve itself, specially opposed to the rest of the capitalist world.

Right now, I believe there is no solution whatsoever. I think all attempts will fail, both from the reformists and the revolutionaries. Capitalism will thrive and will engulf the rest of what is left of resistance. People already forgot that all these wars are about it, they think it's about religion or place or gender whatever, but it's all about money, at all levels. I just see this as terrible news and feel sorry for those who don't lament this.

>The United States and Western Europe will literally N E V E R go into an economic slump like what happened in the early 20th century.

Dude, what are you smoking? You guys are in decline right the fuck now. It just doesn't seem like so because you watch tv made in your own country, but the majority of the world is not American or European and things will turn around sooner than you think. I'm not cheering or condemning anything on no particular side, the players change, but the game remains.

It's not about "the economy" or "the country" and things like that. The people who talk like that are demagogues and liars. It's not "the economy" that gets better or worse, it's the numbers on a large scale, but the closer you look the more you'll the money jumped a little bit more into the hands of just a few. "The economy" is always getting better and better, but the real economy is rotten within. The US and Europe are only rich because they raped the world in their favour, but now even this got globalized and will eventually create new scenarios we are uncapable of predicting.

>Right now, I believe there is no solution whatsoever. I think all attempts will fail, both from the reformists and the revolutionaries.
NOTHING HUMAN MAKES IT OUT OF THE NEAR FUTURE

My point still stands. I'm not sure I agree with many of your points, though you can indeed level some legitimate criticisms at capitalism. But, again, it doesn't get you anywhere because there is no alternative to capitalism that's any better.

Also, you shouldn't lament the flaws of capitalism (at least the ones you can't fix with some reasonable tweaking). You really ought to take a page from the Stoics there.

Get out. This is Veeky Forums not litarted

American conservatism was an offshoot of liberalism cunt, conservatives like Pence are proponents of the ideology of liberal democracy

Stephen Bannon might not be though

I'd call Bannon a traditionalist liberal. Probably, he considers us as a society that has already attained the necessary human rights and wishes to shift the discussion to maintaining culture.

I believe there is no tweaking and I think it is a real danger to think what it needs is a tweaking. To give an example you know drug dealers only exist because when you are poor enough and you consider the cost, gains and risks of getting a shit job 3h from home with no hopes to get any better, and of selling drugs and risk getting in jail and so on, you'd prefer the latter too. And if you don't anyway, you might get in jail for something you didn't do. In fear of getting raped, some guy says he can protect you and even send your family some food and all you have to do is join them. Then they put a gun in your hand and you are with them. The police not only knows but provides them with guns, collect their share weekly and so on. The guy who did not join the drug dealing business survived much longer and perhaps had an ok life, bought a house bigger than his father used to have anyway, but worked all day long 3h away from home for who knows how many decades, could never study, travel or even think of leveling up. Why all that? Because people are thinking in terms of profitting. Because they have to, if they don't keep on going, they break. One thing communists, capitalists and everyone else can agree on is that money is power.

There are no flaws to capitalism. Capitalism is the problem and the problem appears to have no flaws. There is no going back and saying "things will work out", because they are only getting more and more complicated, it involves the internet, the environment, copyright laws, industries making our food, our medicine, our politics, our laws and the information we have to hear about all of that, all the time adjusting each one of them to the position which will make them profit more. The lower the wages, the higher the cost, the better. It's better to spend a million advertising a product saying it is healthy and saving three million using unhealthy shit ingredients than to actually make something healthy instead. It's better to buy a lot of shit art from a shit artist, hold it, then advertise the shit out of them and sell that shit painting for a hundred times their price to some politician who needs to wash his money. It's always better to sacrifice content, to make it faster, cheaper, brighter.

cont
And it's not just a lament. We need to stop whatever we are doing, sit down and think about how to solve this. Because eating vegan and heforshe style feminism will not work out. To create a commie humour page on facebook and make trump jokes and so on will not work out. Those start out dead because they are inside capitalism, they are "tweaking" it. You are nott thinking of actually gathering people into something, you are thinking of charity, or of having a clean consciousness in "ethical consumerism".

The problem is basicly that we don't want to miss a thing. We want all the good stuff and we want to repel what's bad without making any concessions. You want to help the environment, but you don't want to tie yourself to a whale or whatever, so you just recycle your garbage and vote whatever guy who doesn't care about anything, but everyone sleeps at night.

I don't care if "no one knows of something better", because the bigger problem is that I know of something worse than capitalism, which is capitalism in 2057. Since we don't know how that is, there is a spectrum of ways it can turn out and we can effectively think and do things today that can make it a bit less horrible, even if we don't know what those things are. The only way to know them is to take a critical view of what is going on and let our little ideological flags sit down for a moment. To ask for people to at least not support it. To not sleep on it.

It's true, though. Modern liberals abandon the defense of political and religious liberty, of freedom of speech and conscience, and only care about the free market and the GDP.

That's why they prefer China (has economic freedom, but not political freedom) to Russia (has political freedom, but not economical freedom). Heck, after Trump got elected, I remember seeing liberals saying that China, communist-run China, should become the "leader of the free world".