Redpill me on space travel. We can't do FTL(right...

>That's still time for SOMEONE to have colonized a major chunk of the galaxy 60 times over. Which is what puzzled Fermi.
If no one else has done it and we're not so stupid as to wipe ourselves out, plenty of time for us to tackle the job.

There's absolutely no need to colonize galaxy for anyone capable of interstellar travel

That's boring we'll never get to experience exploring new worlds like that.

No wonder space exploration is a dead meme from the early industrial era.

Space is fake and only sci-fi pseuds believe it's real. They literally think the sun is made of helium while flying through a vacuum.

Just compress space instead.

he's right
we don't know if we can go ftl in 1000years. maybe we find a way to manipulate higgs field and reduce the mass of a spaceship to make ftl travel possible. maybe not. who knows yet?

i believe that the problem is in the transit. How do you keep a ship a running for 400 yrs? I mean they dont have to acclerate but atleast need to conserve good chunk of the energy they got, since there is no way of getting any back.

>in 1000years
If mankind still lives then. Consider this: Oil is needed for almost any industrial process, is only found here, and yet we still waste a lot of it.

News flash:
What you want is not necessarily what you'll get.
Look at all the posts on Veeky Forums.
"How do I become filthy rich without effort? I want a job where the money just rolls in and I don't have to do much."
"How can I become one of the world's most respected authorities in field X without having to go to college and waste years learning X?"

If there's no FTL (which is where the smart money is right now) then we'll go the slow way or we won't go at all.
Face it. You're NEVER going to be Captain Kirk and do heroic deeds in-between fucking alien women.

Finally! A sensible comment.
I don't know. No one's ever built anything which had to run that long.
Over-design, redundancy, continual maintenance.
Vacuum tube computers (ENIAC etc.) had thousands of switching elements and relays. They never turned them off lest the thermal shock of start-up blow half-a-dozen tubes at once. Even so, they hardly even went more than a day or two without a failure somewhere.
The idea that a home PC could have billions of logic gates and run for years on end would have staggered them.
We'll either solve the problem or be stuck within the orbit of Pluto. Some of the first interstellar ships (again, assuming there are any) will fail and vanish.

Our own solar system is capable of sustaining of population o trillions for millions of years.
And population growth is declining due to technology.
It is most likely that civilizations don't see any need to populate whole galaxy.

>we don't know if we can go ftl in 1000years.

we know that it's impossible if what we know about physics today is correct.

>b-but what is current physics is all wrong
then I can make any absurd claim of possibility of any event, doesn't mean those claims have any substance.

when we run out of oil the industry will find other materials to keep the profits high.

>we know that it's impossible if what we know about physics today is correct.

why should it be impossible? because mass becomes infinite, require infinite energy?
what if we find a way to reduce mass to zero? what if we discover a loophole?
manipulating the higgs field would be one option, but i bet there are more.

It's more than infinite energy which prevents FTL. You can accelerate forever and the photons keep zipping right past you at their usual 300,000 km/sec because space & time are actually changing around you.

FTL travel would also violate causality and allow travel backwards in time.

Particles without mass don't travel faster than light. They travel AT the speed of light. Photons have no rest mass and do not interact with the Higgs field.

You should read "The Lensman Series" by E.E.Smith. (Start with "Galactic Patrol") They have a gizmo which nullifies inertia and they instantly move at the speed at which the drag of interstellar gas equals the thrust of the rockets. Turn off the rockets and stop dead. Turn off the neutralizer and the "intrinsic" velocity, your pre-neutralization motion, returns. At full power, ships travel something like 90 parsecs/hour and dogfight like WW2 airplanes. Very dated but still fun.

First time travelers feel an extreme version of sea-sickness the first few times they become inertialess. In reality, if such a thing was possible, they'd be dead since chemical reactions and life require the kinetic energy of colliding molecules.

Flattard moron gtfo from sci

2+2is 4-1 that's three quick maff

>Generation ship
>Can you Google it?

Also, we may be unnecessarily fixated on "Muh going to another planet." Planets are fine, and rich resource sinks, but they are also dangerous places to live in many ways. Roving freely through space, only visiting planets rarely to top up your supply of mass, may be the way to go. Don't need FTL for that.

Strike "video games," insert "sex robots," and you are probably closer.

youtube.com/watch?v=IrrADTN-dvg

>pic unrelated

Or is it?

Attached: wat.webm (480x270, 2.65M)

>find other materials to keep the profits high.
Sorry i wrote my words poorly. What i meant was, that our modern way of life requires many ressources, of which most are finite. Looking at our current global politcal situation, I doubt that we will maintain stabitlity for 1000 yrs.

>1) Generation ships

Best solution and possible with today's technology. Meaning we have the science to do this already.

>2) Freezing/suspended animation

Not going to happen.

>3) Travel at 5 or 10% lightspeed.

Humans will never get anything with any substantial mass up to even 1% of the speed of light (6,706,166.29 miles per hour). Just for the space craft section of SpaceX's BFR, you'd need something like 122,780,935kg of fuel to reach something close to 1% of the speed of light just to travel to Alpha Centuri. That's 135,077 tons more fuel than that ship platform can carry. For 1g of acceleration.

>4) Send frozen sperm and eggs and AI/robots to thaw and raise them.

Second best solution. It'd work even with the dumb as shit AI we have now.

>>muh Generation ship
They only need to self-sustain themself for atleast 300 yrs, I see no problem with that [/sarcasm].

It can work, it just needs to be large enough.

>basing interstellar craft designs off of planetary launch craft
Any ship meant to go interstellar will be designed specifically to do so, meaning fuck ass massive fuel tanks and/or laser sails

Do you have any idea how large it would be? Were talking here about atleast 1.000 people (with food and everything else), enough stuff to create a colony plus fuel to stop it in an alien solar system.

You misunderstand. That isn't what was done. It was comparing weight to fuel ratio using a craft everyone knows about. There will never be anything significant built by humanity that will reach 1% of light speed simply due to the energy needed to create the thrust. That fuel was just for the craft. It didn't include the weight of the tanks or any other infrastructure needed to haul that much fuel. Every pound of weight adds a shit load of fuel. The fuel adds weight and reduces efficiency. Laser sails are simply not going to work for something like this and neither are solar sails.

Consider that they arent even allowed to use all of a probe's/satellite's fuel so that they can have some reserve fuel to maneuver to avoid any possible future collisions with something and contaminating it. That's right they are more worried about space jizz potentially contaminating potentially life bearing rocks. So with it means that it's illegal to colonize anything. Not only that but international law forces everything in space to be communism because private property is illegal in space so with no profit motive nobody has any incentives to take the huge risks.

>4) Send frozen sperm and eggs and AI/robots to thaw and raise them.
>Second best solution. It'd work even with the dumb as shit AI we have now.
Children raised in that environment, without parents, would be fucked up beyond belief though. It would never be allowed in cucked western countries. Only countries who don't give a fuck about human rights would do something like that.

>603848
> implying it would actually work

>Which is what puzzled Fermi.
I'd be more puzzled if any civilization would want to do all of that, ours included.

I said "Plenty of time in which we COULD do it."
I've said in other posts I've no idea if we WILL.

Even during the Apollo era when getting there first was a national priority, I doubt the US spent as much on rockets as it did on beer and cigarettes.

Not much has changed. People may cheer Musk but they're not telling Congress to spend more on space flight. The man-in-the-street really has no idea (or interest) in actual space technology.
Reality just doesn't compare with zooming around the galaxy and blowing up CGI planets.
I was horrified to learn that some people who watched "The Martian" thought it was an actual documentary!

I suppose if we knew the Sun was going to explode or an asteroid the size of Texas was going to wipe us out, we'd make a concerted effort. Even then, if The End wasn't scheduled for another millennium, I daresay most people would figure they'll be dead anyway -- so let some future generation worry about it.

Fermi's difficulty was understanding why (if it's possible) not even ONE civilization had tried. Humans aren't very good at long term planning (the next quarter's about the limit for corporations; the next election for governments) but surely SOMEONE is smarter than we are.
Unexpected (and dangerous) stuff happens, even if the odds on it happening in any given year are infinitesimal. The dinosaurs didn't have a space program and look where they are now.

I want to ride my bicycle I want to ride my bike

>Children raised in that environment, without parents, would be fucked up beyond belief though.

They would be fine, just not like we are.

>human rights

Did you have liberal parents or something? lol

The ultimate form of space travel would be the massive rotating smoke ring. Basically you accelerate a lot of mass in a smoke ring shape in place, which generates a huge gravitational pull on one side which would draw spacecraft through the middle of the smoke ring at very high speeds. You would experience no acceleration forces, and could theoretically get close to the speed of light in a matter of seconds, though you would need a dyson swarm to power such a device.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitoelectromagnetism#Higher-order_effects

>Even during the Apollo era when getting there first was a national priority, I doubt the US spent as much on rockets as it did on beer and cigarettes.

Kek.

1972 Apollo budget: $601,200

That doesn't even begin to cover 1 media format for just alcohol advertising in the same year. Which was millions per year for each media type. Today it is well over half a million for alcohol advertising.

>The dinosaurs didn't have a space program

That we know of...

Attached: plate-movements-ppt-9-728.jpg (728x546, 121K)

>Today it is well over half a Billion for alcohol advertising.

fixed

>Did you have liberal parents or something? lol
Thinking that children should be raised in a warm, healthy, family environment is a conservative viewpoint, you retard.

Looks like you fucked up and showed your colors. Better go back, kid.

Why are you asserting that people will only ever construct chemical rocket engines? That's such a bizarre argument. Is this bait?

Good luck with that nuclear powered rocket that is banned by international treaty.

Attached: Project Orion Nuclear Propulsion - 1950s Tests Unclassified Video.webm (480x270, 2.87M)

Inhabitable planets and even stars are overrated.
Any space faring civilization can easily obtain their resources from just everywhere in their own solar system, and with fusion hydrogen will give you all the energy you want, and hydrogen is abundant anywhere.
The very idea to travel to another solar system to survive is quite naive in terms of advanced technology.
The worst case scenario is moving far enough from your star if she's getting too active for comfort.
Anyway could we do it, colonize the whole galaxy? Probably yes. Will we do it? Probably no. Anyone did it? Apparently not.

Orion has, at best, a marginal Isp for practical interstellar travel. What about Z-pinch, magneto-inertial confinement and other fusion drives? Are those also going to be banned?

If the dinosaurs (or some proto-hominids) developed an advanced civilization, they did it without mining coal or oil or iron. Some things last even if cities don't.

When WE'RE 60 million years gone, alien archeologists will trace the rise and fall of our civilization by the strata in which they find Coke bottles.

I know it's just a joke. We find bones, dinosaurian and their predecessors, in formations that haven't "gone under".

Now, if we returned to the Moon and found an ancient Lander with the remains of a spacesuited crew, all showing evidence of a couple of million years exposure to cosmic rays and micrometeorites...

Attached: Inherit the Stars.jpg (736x746, 325K)

I love you. Yes, What we call "space" is nothing other than a different pressure zone. The sun is nothing other than coherent/incoherent motion, along with EVERYTHING ELSE, AS ONE THING ONLY.
>Most humans actually think light travels too.

It's not flattarded, it's toroidal.

Needs moar element 83

>higgs field
Laughinggirls.jpg

As long as humans believe in countable "particulates" of "matter" and that time is a cause or effect we will never understand, let alone invent a spaceship like you described. No seriously, what would time mean to us when the determiner of what we base it on is now irrelevant? That is to say we have no "measurements" or comprehension past light speed (which is false but we have to appeal to everyone now).
To just be "given" a ship would be like the prisoners shackled to the wall for life now being released in Allegory of the Cave by Plato. We would have no concept of how it works, such a device would certainly mean all of our technology would become as useless as the silicon we mined to make it. If we can beat light, then we can beat the energy crisis, we could metamorphosis and creation of new materials, we could slow and speed resistance (time).
It's not just "anti-gravity" it's "Anti- Materialism", think about what that entails. It is suppressed because it would up-heave the world with no turning back.

Attached: quote-i-hold-that-space-cannot-be-curved-for-the-simple-reason-that-it-can-have-no-properties-nikola (850x400, 104K)

This is fucking sad. How much of your time have you spend typing this shitpost? Do you really have nothing better to do?

>Only countries who don't give a fuck about human rights would do something like that.
As always the Americans are way ahead of us.

Refutations?

Attached: Figure_23_01_04a[1].jpg (598x771, 164K)

>magic fantasy propulsion

It doesn't need to be advanced, it just needs to be civilization. Maybe we are missing a lot of pottery shards that got sucked down into the earth's crust millions of years ago. Also there's been coal and oil even before the dinosaurs. One of the big extinctions was caused by coal fires, long before the dinos arrived.

>go explore neighboring solar systems
>it's inhabited by weird ayys that wreck our shit up in seconds
this will literally be the first thing that will happen if we make first contact with ayys

That's what I was saying.
There was coal and oil before the dinosaurs.
And they didn't dig it all up to run their factories and automobiles.
So it's still there for us.

Awfully odd that all the pottery shards vanished when fossils, which form very rarely, got left behind to be found.
Men draw themselves as decorative ornament.
The only dinosaur pottery in existence was manufactured by the nutcases with the Ark in Kentucky.

Attached: 4e7a8-tp5.jpg (1600x1200, 395K)

Tesla was a brainlet.

Yeah, your mom went down on like 6 different guys to pay for your dinner tonight and this larping is your way of escaping that reality

>lmao dude materials science and magnetohydrodynamics will never ever in a hundred thousand years advance beyond the current state-of-the-art
kys my man

>The only dinosaur pottery in existence was manufactured by the nutcases with the Ark in Kentucky.
it's all over south america you idiot

this i dont understand....
someone please explain this to me i have never ever ever understood it.

Why does FTL travel imply time travel
What about FTL teleportation?

>they'd be dead since chemical reactions and life require the kinetic energy of colliding molecules.
Unless inertia is retained within the ship and the ships inertial system is just removed from the inertial system of the galaxy
= it takes no effort to accelerate a can and its contents, but the contents of the can can collide within
startrek inertial dampeners.
you don't feel acceleration, because you are bound into the inertial frame of the inertial dampeners...
and THEN you reduce the mass of the *whole* to close to zero

there's also this thing:

Attached: ftl time travel.gif (323x402, 114K)

but to this i reply
a) this only requires that you cannot teleport arbitrary distances from arbitrarily different frames of reference, and causality is kept up
b) wouldn't this happen with quantum teleportation too?
I propose the following experiment.

Attached: tunneling & reference frame change = timetravel.png (1237x589, 36K)

Implying that there's only the minkowski metric... Are you baiting?

Attached: 1519352617700.jpg (212x212, 9K)

>Why does FTL travel imply time travel
youtube.com/watch?v=ACUuFg9Y9dY

If the current political climate on Earth remains the same, interstellar space travel will be impossible. By the time we get our shit together all the easy to get resources will be gone.

>implying that the Minkowski metric is wrong
are you baiting?

If you're accelerated by a uniform gravitational field, you feel nothing. Just like Star Trek. (Until they twist the camera and the actors all throw themselves across the set.)

But that's not what happens in the Lensman books. Someone experiencing inertialessness for the first time feels horribly unwell, staggers across the cabin and collides with a wall. Rather, one unkempt hair touches the wall and he stops. The hair doesn't bend.

Smith came up with the inertialless idea (which was quite clever and original) because he knew his other series, Skylark, had begun with the unrealistic notion that astronauts could quickly reach lightspeed (and surpass it) within hours, provided their chairs were heavily padded. By the second book in that series, he changed to the one you've mentioned, where the drive-field effects every atom equally and craft attain "an acceleration equal to five times the velocity of light!" (You don't have to tell me that doesn't make sense either. But the tale moves right along.)

FTL can always break causality. Suppose an ansible (instantaneous radio) only works if the transmitter and receiver are relatively motionless. Doesn't that solve the problem?

All you need is TWO sets of transmitter/receiver pairs to cause trouble.
A (on Earth) transmits to B (motionless, 100 LY away). B uses ordinary radio to pass the word to C (near B, but moving) and C ansibles D (near Earth, but stationary with respect to C.)

Quantum teleportation, despite the name, does not transmit any information faster than light. It COPIES a quantum state from particle A to particle B. You examine particle B and immediately know what state particle A, wherever it is, WAS in. But the guy in the lab with A could not have set its state. It's random, and any attempt to "fix" A one way or another breaks its connection with B. So you can't send Morse Code across lightyears -- or even a few centimeters. You can only send randomness.
Only when you directly compare A and B (sending the information slower than light) can you confirm that they were correlated.

>one unkempt hair touches the wall and he stops. The hair doesn't bend.
That's pretty random. What about air?

>Quantum teleportation
You're talking about entanglement.
Not teleportation... aka tunneling.
Tunneling has been measured to be faster than light.

That IS pretty random. And the logic doesn't hold up if you examine it too closely.
Shortly before Smith died, he gave his consent for a writer named Ellern to set yarns in his "universe". Ellern was more rigorous.

In Smith, you still have gravity even if there's no inertia. Elevators have been replaced by "dropshafts". You step into one and fall 100 stories in an instant, feel nothing when you hit bottom and walk out. (Potential energy? What's that?)

Ellern realized the air would ALSO be intertialess. Someone turns on a neutralizer and all the air in the room drops to the floor. The air in your lungs drops to the lung-bottom and you suffocate.

And, of course, when Smith's battleships leap from "rest" to 90 parsecs/hour, the occupants feel nothing. That violates the Equivalence Principle. But, hey, if you're going to insist on obeying that Einstein chap, the majority of Space Operas go out the window and what fun is that?

>Tunneling has been measured to be faster than light.
>physicsforums.com/threads/quantum-leap-ftl.183584/
>thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=33352.0

I'm aware of the experiments where light appears to go through a medium faster-than-light.
>physicsworld.com/a/laser-smashes-light-speed-record/
No one has shown that information goes FTL.
At least, I've never heard of it, and I assume it would be front-page news.

The point is that the group speed is theoretically not higher than c.
But the matter-wave of any object existing has already propagated through space in the past billions of year, only the waveform of the current organization of subatomic particles that is you has not.

technically there is an infinitessimal chance that you as you are now are actually on the moon.

Even a colony ship is unlikely any time soon imho. And even if you get it to actually work, by the time you get to generation 3 and later where the entire crew didn't volunteer tier for the mission, you run into higher and higher likelihood of it failing for any number of reasons. I'm sure there's multiple scifi novels dealing with brain drain on a space colony. All it would take is for some highly specific skill to be lost that is required to repair a life support system, and the odds of a colony ship reaching its destination become close to 0 as the mission goes on.

minkowski metric is only right in space without any matter which is a preposterous concept, it is a good approximation when you're not near a black hole or a neutron star, which is most of the time, but it's not right.

Read a real weird one recently.
They keep cloning the crew and Propulsion Engineer XXVI instructs young Propulsion Engineer XXVII before retiring to the "rest home" module and, eventually, being recycled.
As if clones were carbon-copies with the same aptitudes and interests.

>Space travel
space isn't even real. earth is flat.

We’ll just drug ourselves with ai designed drugs to speed up our relative time

this design is exceptionally retarded.
Aliens make really fucking shitty engineers, even fucking jim could do better!

>all the easy to get resources will be gone.
Gone where? Things like oil are not renewable, but they are also primitive tech.
All the rest doesn't magically disappear, chemistry doesn't work like that.
Whatever we extracted it's still here, maybe in a landfill as waste but still ready for the taking.
(technically even oil doesn't disappear, it's just scattered into other chemical components. Pointless as it is you could recreate it by adding energy)

FTL doesn't matter.
Go fast enough for some decent dilation to happen and your local perception of time will make the time traveling that distance trivial.

>maybe we find a way to manipulate higgs field
We can already do that: the Higgs boson is an excitation of the Higgs field. If you mean we could decrease the vev of the Higgs field, you run the risk of seeding vacuum decay and destroying the universe, but even if that didn't happen almost all the mass in our universe is due to the strong force, not the Higgs field.
You know that almost all mass lies in the nucleus of the atom, in its protons and neutrons. If you look at the mass of the proton compared to the mass of its three quarks, you see that the proton has a mass about 100 times that of the constituent quarks -- turning the Higgs effect down would reduce the mass of your spaceship by about 1% at the most, because the remaining mass is determined dynamically by the strong interaction of the quarks.
And then you say:
>and reduce the mass of a spaceship to make ftl travel possible
Even if you could reduce the mass of your ship to zero the maximum speed you could reach is the speed of light, the speed a massless particle travels at.

you don't even need to reach the speed of light to travel wherever you wish, just get close enough to c and length contraction + time dilatation takes care of the rest
from the traveler's point of view anyway

>and when

3 months AFTER you die.

They won't and you are completely deluded to think it will.

>Awfully odd that all the pottery shards vanished when fossils

Did you not fucking read this image?

Get fucking destroyed. Can't even reify space let alone time. Still waiting for a refutation.
>We're at the pinnacle oh technology, it's the job of science to prove that we are!
Delusional indeed.

>pretending to be retarded for (You)s
absolute state of Veeky Forums shitposters

More resources, more security against extinction, more probability of finding something interesting out there and generally more life and especially more intelligent life is always a good thing

Carbon Nano tubes are things we made in lab. A material with amazing properties. We just don't know how to produce it in large scale, in a cheap enough way for the consumer market.

Only reason lasers don't work is the limited range before the beam defocuses.
You could build giant fusion powered lasers on each planet (and giant mirrors or solasers powered by excited particles in chromosphere) and have them push a ship inwards, around the sun and out again.
With sufficiently large lasers and mirrors you could probably get a sorta big-ish probe to other systems. And use magsails to decelerate.
But of course a max few ton probe isnt going to be any good for colonisation unless you have some fancy self replicating tech or AI.

If you want real interstellar travel you should use Bussard ramjets.
They require a working fusion reactor but nothing more
You need to accelerate them to a respectable speed in the beggining, especially considering the low density of our local bubble
But as stated you can do that with a "sling manouver" around the sun during which you are constantly pushing it with giant lasers and near the sun the ship would have plenty of fuel to accelerate

askmar.com/Robert Bussard/Catalytic Nuclear Ramjet.pdf

TL;DR
if you have viable fusion, you have the tech for relativistic interstellar travel