True Immortality is possible

Firespawn
Firespawn

Mind Uploading is the only way to achieve true immortality. Though you need to be wealthy to buy it.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=01hbkh4hXEk

m.youtube.com/watch?v=dyJjGxZs4l8

2045.com

dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4747174/amp/Transhumanism-lead-immortality-elite.html

dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3096393/The-rich-God-like-cyborgs-Historian-claims-wealthy-transform-new-type-human-200-years.html

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All urls found in this thread:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=01hbkh4hXEk
m.youtube.com/watch?v=dyJjGxZs4l8
2045.com
dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4747174/amp/Transhumanism-lead-immortality-elite.html
dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3096393/The-rich-God-like-cyborgs-Historian-claims-wealthy-transform-new-type-human-200-years.html
newscientist.com/article/dn22028-computer-that-could-outlive-the-universe-a-step-closer/amp/
artselectronic.wordpress.com/2017/03/10/from-paper-to-the-lab-a-space-time-crystal-computer-that-can-outlive-the-universe/amp/?source=images

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

futurism
dailymail co uk
You won't be immortal as I'm afraid your retardation is terminal.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

Worthless because your original subjective experience of your mind's perception would be lost at death. Not uploading my mind to shit even if I had the money.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

True Immortality is possible
lol no, you will be able to make a 1:1 copy of your conciousness one day, but that will not be you, you will die in the process.

Supergrass
Supergrass

mind uploading will kill you, you fucking dumb ape

Booteefool
Booteefool

All you are is your consciousness. If you had a perfect clone, you will feel as if you were you the whole time

MPmaster
MPmaster

But from your perspective it will be as if you went to sleep and woke up in a different body

Soft_member
Soft_member

No you won't because the existence of the clone does not preclude the existence of your original self. It follows that since the original you and your copied you can exist at once, and since you cannot simultaneously experience two consciousnesses at once, you cannot experience the consciousness of your uploaded mind.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

You are put to sleep. Cloning then happens while you are unconscious. If the original you is then killed while still unconscious, then when the cloned you wakes up, everything's still good. Consciousness has been "transferred"

cum2soon
cum2soon

The Moravec Transfer is the only mind uploading method that won't kill you and will actually transfer your consciousness.

Bidwell
Bidwell

But the fact is the process doesn't demand the original "you" be killed. Consider the fact that there is no physical transfer of your mind, your original brain dies and you are gone. Any copy is not you, just a reproduced map of your neuronal network.

The only reason you would willingly believe that somehow this is something the REAL you is able to experience is because you're afraid of dying. Accept your death and live a better life as a result.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

Someday I'll be a robot loli

TreeEater
TreeEater

I didn't say anything about physical transfers. How does not work for transferring consciousness?

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

Because what part is actually being transferred other than the information that makes up your mind?

WebTool
WebTool

The transfer is that you are CLONED, did you even read

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

I'd rather have pseudo immortality in the form of never aging until the day comes where without a doubt I can transfer my consciousness and still remain me rather than an identical copy. Regardless if true VR becomes a thing you could hypothetically alter how your brain processes time in order to live in a virtual world near indefinitely.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

If you can't see how a clone isn't you then I have nothing else to say. Enjoy the false security of living forever, I hope it improves the quality of your (finite) life

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

Mind/Brain uploading is the only true form of absolute immortality as it enables the possibility of surviving the heat death of the universe.

Thus it infinitely eclipses any other types of so called immortality as mind/brain uploading is the only one that actually enable you experience/witness the true definition of "Eternity" and "Infinity".

Information/Data/Consciousness could theoretically survive the heat death of the universe.

newscientist.com/article/dn22028-computer-that-could-outlive-the-universe-a-step-closer/amp/

artselectronic.wordpress.com/2017/03/10/from-paper-to-the-lab-a-space-time-crystal-computer-that-can-outlive-the-universe/amp/?source=images

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TurtleCat
TurtleCat

from your clones perspective*

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

Does "immortality" merely mean not dying, or does it mean invincibility in the sense that one can defy all reason, logic and sense and still hope to get away with it?

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

become an immortal avatar
be able to live long enough to experience thick amazons with huge dicks who will rail my mouth and ass for eternity

i love the future

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BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

ctrl+f
"tsuki"
0 results
Man you guys are brainlets

MPmaster
MPmaster

Ironic that immortality in the past was obtained by being a "great person"
your immortality was contingent on history.

I see a parallel here. That while this "mind uploading" is trying to say that your consciousness will be transferred.
In reality you are just putting your experiences in an ageless robot which will guarantee that your story will continue on forever.

On the "localization" of consciousness have we even disproved the collective consciousness theory?
I mean empathy is a hard skill to master but it can be done none the less.

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Snarelure
Snarelure

women
with dicks
traps are gay

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

*bombs your avatar project progress*

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Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

A 1:1 copy of you is all that happens constantly from instant to instant, you don't actually think you have some ethereal soul do you?

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

this.

it will just be a copy of you, not an upload of your consciousness.
so while the copy might live on, possibly with severe degradation of the mapped information, since mapping synapses is not all it takes, to the point of ending up as a vegetable, your ass will still be dead.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

Oh yeah we going to war before anything like this happen.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

No it doesn't, it's the same nuerons firing the same chemicals/electrons in the same physical substrate.
I do not accept the "theory" that the same pattern in a different substrate would be "me", as you then have to accept that I would be experiencing BOTH bodies/existences at the same time regardless of the distance between us. That's fucking retarded.
Even if you made an EXACT copy (which you can't do) of every single synaptic firing, it wouldn't be your "stream of consciousness".

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

Relax! - Let The Immortality Begin and Death Be A Choice - I got the Key to Immortality - Staying Absolutely Healthy All The Time, for Infinite Health = Immortality - Everybody can become Immune To Any Diseases - By doing my Discovery (just an exercise for a minute a day), that cures and prevents any Diseases, known on Earth, even Aging and Radiation Disease, for every cell of our bodies is shielded 100% from any external/internal (genetic) detrimental impact - I will describe my Discovery to everyone, who sends me an E-check for one million US Dollars (money can be negotiated) - In less than a month everybody will become Infinitely Healthy, Radiation-Proof and Immortal - Like the Gods who created us humans.

likme
likme

Pro tip: If you've ever slept or had something grab your attention such that you've forgotten what you were doing, by your definition you've lost your "stream of conscience" and become another person. May as well just kill yourself and get it over with since you'll die at most within the next 24 hours anyway.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

From past claims it seems fair to say you always need to take "futurist" timelines with a grain of salt. Perhaps a very large grain at that given that we'd been promised Rosie level robo-maids and vacations around the solar system right about now.

My question is after the initial "eye roll", how much buffer do you guys add in calculating a "realistic" timeline in your head?

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

Holy shit user. Is this actually what you tell yourself to hold onto the hope that you will be able to upload your brain?
When I'm asleep my brain hasn't turned off nor have my neurons changed. There is no change is the substrate. To claim that every time go to sleep you're a completely different consciousness is ludicrous.

Techpill
Techpill

my brain hasn't turned off nor have my neurons changed. There is no change is the substrate.
Oho, so suddenly the patterns matter more than this "stream of consciousness" now? That's quite the change from your original post.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

being this fucking stupid

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

Good argument bro you sure convinced me with those hot opinions. Another pro tip for you: If you got a problem with what I said it's due to that guys terrible definitions.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

Exactly enough so that I live to see it. Optimism is a fantastic delusion.

Illusionz
Illusionz

My original post was that the SUBSTRATE is the most important. This is also why you can change someones physical brain structure (which is what happens whenever you learn something new) and they retain their stream.
You can copy my brain exactly into another 'harddrive', and whether the other harddrive is another human brain or a silicon based cpu or some third thing it still won't be ME experiencing it - it's not as though I'd take in sensory input from both minds, and have both minds thinking at the same time, etc. We're locked into our bodies and brains.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

So it's not the memories that make someone, not their ideas or intelligence, or problem solving skills, the things they've learned or believe in, there reactions or instincts. No, instead it's literally the meat. Bad news for you though, your brain is still changing while you sleep. Since you also don't have a stream of consciousness at that point you're brain changes I guess you still die every night. Sucks man, my condolences.

King_Martha
King_Martha

Yea, it's literally the meat. I'm not the one saying that, it's not ME making that claim, it's just how the laws of physics and computation work.

happy_sad
happy_sad

Right, so if I grind up your brain into mulch it's still you then right? Why are you so worried about dying in that case? Sure, your molecules get moved around a bit, but the whole substrate is still somewhere. You're already immortal!

SniperGod
SniperGod

I never said I was worried about dying.
If you destroy my brain I'll be dead in the same way that if you try to transfer it it won't be me.

TechHater
TechHater

Wait, what? How would you be dead? The substrates still all there.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

Ending aging is more reasonable

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

if you make an exact copy of your physical body, and your physical body is what spawns your consciousness, what have you not transferred that keeps the clone from being the same you? what's the transfer missing? some sort of an overlying mystical property, a soul?

it's looking like it's no use arguing with this dumbfuck

Techpill
Techpill

lost

StonedTime
StonedTime

this could be done to you every night of your life and you wouldn't know
thousands of yous that perished in the process... wouldn't know either, because they are fucking dead
the implication is horrifying though

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AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

actually that isn't true because from moment to moment there are tons of changes going on in the body.

I mean 1:1 copy of you would be an identical twin.
A clone even
I have heard of "weird" twin effects at a distance.
But you don't necessarily share the same consciousness as your twin.

Immortality will be done with nanomachine in a constant state of work trying to maintain your body from degrading, and ensuring your neurons are firing.

you can't download a consiousness.
and if we did we would need much better quantum computer than what we have now considering the amount of parallel processing that goes on in the brain.

also to note, that we can only measure "brain activity" in terms of blood flow and EM waves.
there could be more to the mind than just these two, and I am hopeful that there is.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

I measure those things in terms of "space" and not time.

DeathDog
DeathDog

Why would you want to live another day in this particular type of avatar?

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

Nothing I said is wrong. If you make an exact copy of you down to somehow the position of the electrons in your brain (impossible but assume you can) you will not be experiencing consciousness in both bodies. To assume you could is fucking retarded and is closer to a "soul" than anything I have asserted. The clone will think it was you and have your exact memories and personality but YOU will still be in your original body and brain, and there is no way to move your consciousness from your body/brain into another one.

whereismyname
whereismyname

you will not be experiencing consciousness in both bodies
[argument needed]

that's exactly what's happening. obviously you don't experience split reality, but you do end up experiencing different things in the same time frame because there's two of your body. why's this a problem for brainlets?

StonedTime
StonedTime

The benefit of the clone is that it is a reasonable facsimile of a person (i.e you). It will have your memories, personality, desires, dreams, goals, loves, etc..

To those around it, it is you. It will adopt your life through interaction and it will find it's place as you in said environment. This would likely be a very quick process, a mental or psycological melding of the entity into a world of interactions that it was predestined to fulfill.

In other words, the only thing making "you" you in this situation is your neural patterns. For all intents and purposes, the experience of your consciousness can exist in multiple bodies, but only experienced by itself, contained within it's own body copy.

Remember the episode on STTNG where Riker got caught in the transporter buffer and a clone of him at the exact moment was left on the planet while another copy of him made it to the ship? They found him a few years later and he developed into a completely different person via his experiences even though his core ideals and loves were still there.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

What a brainlet.

TechHater
TechHater

Yes but those particles arent you, you are something more than them. All those cells turn over entirely several times in your life. The you is purely the memory of the past instances of those particles, a memory which could exist in a clone, a computer program or just you second to second.

FastChef
FastChef

To add, if you make 100 copies of yourself, each and every one of them will think they were the one the copies were made from considering they were copied with the memories and experience of wanting copies made.

They would all sincerely believe the we're the original, real you.

You could even have them all fight to the death (with the original you in the fight too) and each one of "you" would believe themselves to be the original fighting to retain their originality.

JunkTop
JunkTop

Obviously 1:1 was an expression, of course there are causative changes but nothing bridges the gap between all these instances. There is not a single part of you the same over a sufficient period, just the memory over time and the afferent and efferent signals in thought.

massdebater
massdebater

exact copy of your physical body
Since your original biochemical system (body) is made of other atoms, it cannot be identically copied, since the atoms are completely different.
what have you not transferred
The "flow of consciousness" (which is a limit on the rate of change of your current biochemical system), running on the current body. The copy is an entirely different entity all by itself with a separate rate of change from yours.
If you're killed (the change of the biochemical system exeeds a given hypothetical "speed of consciousness" limit), you die, while the clone continues to live as a completely separate system. If that's your plan, you might as well kill yourself now, since the results (from your point of view) will be the same.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

This. A very gradual replacement of brain, without the loss of consciousness, is the only death-proof way to be sure you'll survive. All other ways, like uploading or copying basically kill you like a brainlet schmuck.

TreeEater
TreeEater

Absolutely nonsensical. Transfer of consciousness is just the experience of such anchors in thought from preceeding thoughts, go read about thought insertion and thought signals. If you were to give a computer all the same set up to yourself at a given moment it would be you and would experience a continuity and history as real as you do any second. Slow transfer is a total waste of time designed to appeal to morons who have no spent a single second thinking about identity and subjectivity.

Soft_member
Soft_member

If you were to give a computer all the same set up to yourself at a given moment it would be you
as real as you do any second
But it won't be me, you moron, since I'd still be here. It's an entirely new system made of different atoms.
identity and subjectivity
Abolutely nothing identarian or subjective about it. You're a machine that runs a process and if this process is interrupted, you die. Copy and transfer it all you want, your process (consciousness) will still only be running on current body, with a given limited rate of change of the system. Replacing the parts of the system at that limited rate as to not disrupt it is the only way to actually stay "alive".

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

lose consciousness
go to ER
get saved and recover
actually not because you died the moment you lost consciousness, and then at the ER a new person was born

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

...
Some of your neurons die off in sleep sometimes and pass info to newer neuron cells... Effectively shutting down and then the brain carries the dead away to be osmosified...

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

citation needed

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

You actually lose complete consciousness only at brain death.

JunkTop
JunkTop

How else do you propose you change the original hardware (i.e. the original "hardwired" physical system that is you), other than gradual replacement?

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

ITT: brainlets implying there is such thing as a "self"

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

Nope, it's actually:
ITT: brainlets hold onto the idea that they will actually experience consciousness in two separate bodies at the same time just because they want mind uploading to be real.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

They would all sincerely believe the we're the original, real you.
maybe because they are? there's nothing setting the clones apart and determining where the "real" you is. obviously the instances of you would start drifting apart after divergence, and eventually they could be considered different persons. it's only a matter of preference. but there certainly are no problems in this thought experiment, apart from the ones you're making up.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

Since your original biochemical system (body) is made of other atoms, it cannot be identically copied, since the atoms are completely different.
for all intents and purposes perfect copies of an atom are the same. if you build your definition of continuous consciousness of physical particles (which is retarded to begin with), you are dying all the time as your atoms change.
The "flow of consciousness" (which is a limit on the rate of change of your current biochemical system), running on the current body. The copy is an entirely different entity all by itself with a separate rate of change from yours.
If you're killed (the change of the biochemical system exeeds a given hypothetical "speed of consciousness" limit), you die, while the clone continues to live as a completely separate system. If that's your plan, you might as well kill yourself now, since the results (from your point of view) will be the same.
so what? I could kill myself no problem if I did have a clone.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

You aren't the same mental "you" from second to second anyway. How can you be such a brainlet to believe you have some permanent immaterial self? You are different instances of mental experience connected together by 1) memory 2) the afferent signals in thoughts. Without those two things you would feel no relation to previous instances of your body.

A computer you would feel just as much conscious continuity from the past as you do.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

Isn't uploading your brain to a computer basically just cloning yourself? You could technically do it while you're still alive.

You will never actually be "immortal", you'll just die, and a new "you" will be created.

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cum2soon
cum2soon

sorry i should have clarified
you're making several assumptions that need substantiating evidence

Bidwell
Bidwell

indeed, the continuous "you" is merely an abstraction, reflecting the maximal difference between your different versions that you are willing to accept to be "you". this goes identically for past and present "you"s as it goes for "you"s in different locations in space. brainlets think "you"s at different moment are obviously the same entity, but "you"s at different positions aren't.

there's no reason to assume that a simulation running zeros and ones that can be interpreted as a brain would actually spawn a consciousness.

idontknow
idontknow

there's no real reason to assume that a consciousness exists either

Playboyize
Playboyize

other than the fact that I'm experiencing it right now. why are you people spouting your opinions after having spent 1 second thinking?

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

They say it doesn't exist and they deny qualia because they want mind uploading to be real.

Methshot
Methshot

denying qualia is like the most retarded thing you can do. I don't see how that would help anybody cope

Methnerd
Methnerd

weak argument
how are any of us to consider you seriously if you pussy out of the most basic validation

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

let's just say arguing with you would be a complete waste since you sitting there thinking that you don't exist implies a complete lack of logic

SniperGod
SniperGod

so what? I could kill myself no problem if I did have a clone.
You consciousness flow won't magically transfer to the clone when you die.

for all intents and purposes perfect copies of an atom are the same.
They are made of different matter (different as in not part of your current biochemical system) that you are. Also, they can't be the exactly the same since the forces acting on them from the surrounding environment are different (since they can't occupy the same space). Different objects are different (holy fuck).

if you build your definition of continuous consciousness of physical particles (which is retarded to begin with), you are dying all the time as your atoms change.
I'm saying that the illusion of "consciousness" humans have is only maintained within a given limited rate of change of the system. Exceeding this rate kills you.
Creating a copy does absolutely nothing for your current system. It doesn't magically transfer the biochemical reaction in your brain (your "consciousness") to the copy. it makes no sense to even consider that possible. In this scenario, when you die, you just disappear (from your point of view) and your separate copy continues to live.

RumChicken
RumChicken

You aren't the same mental "you" from second to second anyway.
Obviously you aren't. I never said that. I literally said that the system has a given rate of change whitin which you have the illusion of "consciousness". Exceeding it (i.e. 12 gauge to the skull) kills you.

DeathDog
DeathDog

consciousness flow
ah, so even if somehow an exact copy of myself appears in a different location it won't be me because of this mystical transcendent property... a soul, if you will?

illusion of "consciousness"
consciousness is literally the only thing you can be sure to exist. but have fun trying to make your le illusion model fit, dennet.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

ah, so even if somehow an exact copy of myself appears in a different location it won't be me because of this mystical transcendent property... a soul, if you will?
YOU are the one making up some concept of a "soul" that somehow can magically flow through spacetime regardless of distance just because the arrangement of chemicals/electrons is the same. We're saying it doesn't even matter if there is an equivalent electrical configuration, in the same way the salt on my table is exactly the same as the salt on some other guy's table on the other side of the world but it's NOT connected to each other via some mystical force that you must assert exists in order to rectify your theory.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

flow through spacetime regardless of distance just because the arrangement of chemicals/electrons is the same
ever heard of the concept of emergence? the concept of a circle can exist in multiple points in space, even if the particles making it up aren't the same and the particles themselves contain no properties that the circle does.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

soul
Wtf are you talking about? I never even implied there's anything metaphysical about this. Actually, you do it through assuming the interactions within 2 systems are somehow related without directly interacting with each other.
exact copy
First, it's impossible because of the different environmental interactions.
Second, it's impossible because every quanta is inherently different by the virtue of existing separately from every other, thus they cannot be the same.

MPmaster
MPmaster

Yes and every single copy of that circle will be difference, even if they are made of the same chemicals and are exact copies. (just like my video game is an exact copy of yours but they are not connected whatsoever).

Soft_member
Soft_member

First, it's impossible because of the different environmental interactions.
it's completely irrelevant whether it's possible in practice.

Second, it's impossible because every quanta is inherently different by the virtue of existing separately from every other, thus they cannot be the same.
quanta? qualia? what overlying factor makes them different just because they're spawned by different physical bodies? both bodies can perfectly easily be subjected to the same conditions, there will only be one branch of consciousness. it doesn't matter how many physical bodies are supporting it, just like it doesn't matter if there's slight divergence. you're still talking of the same consciousness, unless you also think you're not the same person you were 5 secs ago.

girlDog
girlDog

understand, the physical object of particles forming a circle is different from the concept of a circle, just like a consciousness is different from the atoms causing it to emerge.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

irrelevant whether it's possible in practice

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5mileys
5mileys

instead of a low-effort ad hominem, it would be more polite to just admit that you were wrong.

takes2long
takes2long

citation needed
also happy 16th birthday

massdebater
massdebater

it's completely irrelevant whether it's possible in practice.
How so?

quanta?
Yes, as in "particles"

what overlying factor makes them different
The factor that they exist independently of each other.

both bodies can perfectly easily be subjected to the same conditions
No they can't. The conditions in 2 point in space cannot ever be the same as the field interactions are different. ( ex: gravity has an infinite range, meaning all the matter in the universe interacts differently with it in every point in spacetime)

branch of consciousness. it doesn't matter how many physical bodies are supporting it
Going into pseudoscience.

think you're not the same person you were 5 secs ago
"Consciousness" is not a tangible concept and is thus metaphysical (i.e. an illusion). I mentioned the rate of change maybe 10 times already.

iluvmen
iluvmen

Not me, though.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

refer to

How so?
we're discussing theory either way, as none of this is possible today and won't be for a long time. ever heard of theoretical discussion?
The factor that they exist independently of each other.
and because of this there exists some sort of force that declares they can't be the same consciousness?
No they can't. The conditions in 2 point in space cannot ever be the same as the field interactions are different. ( ex: gravity has an infinite range, meaning all the matter in the universe interacts differently with it in every point in spacetime)
you put 2 identical bodies in the same room and let them do whatever they want. they'll behave exactly the same, regardless of your nitpicking.
Going into pseudoscience.
this is whole topic philosophy, retard. philosophy is a superset to science, so don't use it as an insult.
I mentioned the rate of change maybe 10 times already.
and failed to make it relevant to the discussion.

the lack of arguments coming from your side tells another tale man

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

"cogito"

Methnerd
Methnerd

dude one of the most important thoughts is "cogito ergo sum", literally the ONLY thing you can prove exists is that you are conscious. Everything else is an assumption.

DeathDog
DeathDog

force that declares they can't be the same consciousness?
Because "consciousness" is a function of matter. "branching out" consciousness is complete bullshit with no basis in reality.
nitpicking
You basically lost the argument, since you're dismissing objective criticism through abstraction (muh room) without a counterargument.
philosophy
Putting your baseless assumptions and nonarguments under "philosophy" doesn't make them less pseudoscientific.

Supergrass
Supergrass

Doesn't the "person" likely rely on the body as well? Neuroscience shows we aren't just the brain. I don't see us transfering minds anytime soon before solving the mind-body problem.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

a meaninglessly minor deviation in two different consciousnesses is not an objective criticism for them being the same. you CAN theoretically build two exactly similar bodies if you compensate for every force appropriately, but that slight deviation is absolutely meaningless either way. that's the length of your "winning argument". in the meantime you've basically skipped refuting several of my points with "m-muh pseudoscience".

Inmate
Inmate

meaninglessly minor deviation
But it exists. No matter how many diminutives you put before "deviation", it won't change the fact that it deviates and thus cannot be the same. My arguments stands and your hypothesis fails.
is not an objective criticism
It is. They cannot objectively be the same due to the laws of physics. You can't get more objective than this.
if you compensate for every force appropriately
You cannot compensate for the gravitational effect of every quanta in the universe, since it'll require more matter than there is. Also, the matter you use will also exerts uneven gravitational pull on the objects, making it even more pointless.

skipped refuting several of my points
Such as?

Techpill
Techpill

You cannot compensate for the gravitational effect of every quanta in the universe, since it'll require more matter than there is. Also, the matter you use will also exerts uneven gravitational pull on the objects, making it even more pointless.
man, just setup the experiment so that the net gravitational forces even out on each particle. you need less mass when you bring the objects closer. I don't know what else to say.

Such as?
for starters, the fact that consciousness is an emergent property. it isn't affected by physical identity the same way as physical objects. just like 1 = one, the concept of 1 has strict identity that is detached from the physical objects making it up. the same goes for consciousness. equating two slightly different versions of a consciousness is just loose identity.

Snarelure
Snarelure

the self can't be transferred because the self isn't really a thing that exists literally. Information exists, and that information is linked together into a somewhat loose unit, but that's a process that is turned off and on all the time, we just falsely believe there exist a continuous self because of memory. Just like such hypothetical robot would believe the there is a continuous 'self' between its human and robotic form.

hairygrape
hairygrape

And the self who's been copied in the first place would be a separated entity.

Methnerd
Methnerd

even out on each particle
This will be an interesting thing to do when every particle in the ever expanding universe exerts gravitational pull on you. The 2 "identical" objects also exert influence on each other, screwing it even more.

consciousness is an emergent property
it isn't affected by physical identity the same way as physical objects
What led you to this conclussion? It's purely a property of matter in one way or another so it has to be identified through physical objects, as is the case with everything.
1 = one, the concept of 1 has strict identity
The "identity" of consciousness/a number/etc. is not actually real. The objects do not possess the properties of their identity in the real physical world. The neurons in your head give them their "identity".

equating two slightly different versions of a consciousness is just loose identity
You don't have to equate it since consciousness doesn't exist as a real tangable property, outside neural configuration that creates the abstraction of that property in your brain. And if something doesn't exist outside the nural configuration in your brain, then it's illusory.

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RavySnake
RavySnake

This will be an interesting thing to do when every particle in the ever expanding universe exerts gravitational pull on you. The 2 "identical" objects also exert influence on each other, screwing it even more.
ah, again the "b-but muh practicality". it's irrelevant in a thought experiment.
What led you to this conclussion?
it's the one that makes apparent sense if you want a model that explains the relations between physical and subjective existence. I'll disbelieve the existence of a physical universe before I doubt the existence of a subjective domain where I myself exist, so doubting emergence doesn't threaten the existence of the subjective experience rather than the physical world.
The "identity" of consciousness/a number/etc. is not actually real.
what
The objects do not possess the properties of their identity in the real physical world. The neurons in your head give them their "identity".
just like the atoms creating a circle don't possess the properties which make two circles equal.
You don't have to equate it since consciousness doesn't exist as a real tangable property outside neural configuration that creates the abstraction of that property in your brain. And if something doesn't exist outside the nural configuration in your brain, then it's illusory.
oh, it's another user telling me he doesn't exist. brilliant. why don't you go shoot yourself, it shouldn't be a biggie since you never existed in the first place?

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

b-but muh practicality
Still, equal conditions cannot exist at different points in spacetime.
explains the relations between physical and subjective existence
Maybe they are, you know, exactly the same...
what
You assert that these things have an inherent identity when that's not phisically true.
just like the atoms creating a circle don't possess the properties which make two circles equal.
Your point being? A circle is a tangable macroscopic object while consciousness isn't.
oh, it's another user telling me he doesn't exist
I can assert my existence through my physical interactions with the environment. "Consciousness" cannot do this thus it's illusory. Not to mention that since the world is either probabilistic or deterministic, the concept of "consciousness" being in control becomes void.

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Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

I just wrote that the self isn't a real entity.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

This may not pertain to the main topic but it's something I just wonder about: lets say you have a machine that could make an 1:1 clone of you instantly. You would step into a person-sized capsule and in a different capsule to the side of yours would pop out your clone. Lets say the pod you step into is colored red both on the inside and outside and the pod your clone appears in is colored blue inside and out. You know all of this beforehand. The moment your clone materializes, it's going to be in the blue pod. Since it copies your memories, the clone is going to feel like it teleported to the blue pod while you (the original) will not feel anything happen and still be in the red pod. Your clone should then instantly know that it's the clone. Why do people say that any clone would insist it's the real deal? The only explanation I could see would be that you as a person couldn't handle the fact of being a clone thus will always lie to insist they're the original when they know they aren't.

Skullbone
Skullbone

Still, equal conditions cannot exist at different points in spacetime.
[citation needed]
Maybe they are, you know, exactly the same...
how? I'm not a lump of brain.
You assert that these things have an inherent identity when that's not phisically true.
yes, because they have identity regardless of physics. physics doesn't even try to explain these things, it's limited in that. math, logic and philosophy do. so fine, you just stick to science, trying to explain something with it that it doesn't even pretend to answer.
Your point being? A circle is a tangable macroscopic object while consciousness isn't.
the concept of circle is not tangible, it's merely an idea. so is the concept of quantity, say, 1.
I can assert my existence through my physical interactions with the environment.
so you're saying your senses are objective and can't be wrong?
"Consciousness" cannot do this thus it's illusory.
what's the difference between non-existent and illusory?
Not to mention that since the world is either probabilistic or deterministic, the concept of "consciousness" being in control becomes void.
how is this relevant to the discussion at all? nobody said consciousness necessarily impacts the physical world, but we do experience it being so, and that in itself is indisputable and perhaps even meaningful.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

No I'll just make a AI with memory data identical to my own who will move on to live a kickass immortal life.

Fuck that guy.

5mileys
5mileys

[citation needed]
The probabilistic nature of black hole evaporation, radioactive element half-life and the quantum foam mean you can never align the matter in the universe to achieve equal conditions. There is also "inaccesible" matter past the light horizon.
I'm not a lump of brain.
"Subjectivity" is another one of those metaphysical abstractions. Everything you do functions objectively and purely physically thus you can't detach it into another category.
concept of circle
The concept is irrelevant since the circle is defined physically throught its existence. It doesn't matter how you define it since it's real. I can't say the same for consciousness, which has no objective physical definition.
senses are objective
Considering they are completely dependant on physical interactions to work, yes.
what's the difference between non-existent and illusory?
None. Both are just a neuron configuration in your brain that don't reflect the condition of physical objects.
nobody said consciousness necessarily impacts the physical world
How do you assert its existence if it doesn't impact the physical world and isn't objectievly defined through physics?

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Evilember
Evilember

The probabilistic nature of black hole evaporation
certainly you can with a certain probability. checkmate
"Subjectivity" is another one of those metaphysical abstractions. Everything you do functions objectively and purely physically thus you can't detach it into another category.
subjectivity is the starting point for everything, since everything you experience happens on a subjective level, through your senses. starting the approach with physical properties is just pop-sci retardation.
The concept is irrelevant since the circle is defined physically throught its existence. It doesn't matter how you define it since it's real. I can't say the same for consciousness, which has no objective physical definition.
ok dude, consciousness (= you) doesn't exist. do you even believe that yourself?
Considering they are completely dependant on physical interactions to work, yes.
oh no no no no no, I won't even bother making an example of how your senses are completely untrustworthy
How do you assert its existence if it doesn't impact the physical world and isn't objectievly defined through physics?
ever heard of cogito ergo sum?

you notice how this debate keeps drifting around when you keep introducing new theories? meanwhile I keep hammering the point about consciousness being immaterial and not tied to the physical world the way you keep saying. we're never going to reach a conclusion this way.

eGremlin
eGremlin

Lmao the ranting in this thread.
Hypothetically, you clone youself the moment the contents of your brain is copied and transferred, the entities own experiences diverge from your own making a very similar entity but by experience it is different. Regardless if you kill yourself, the clone will continue to live on and experience whilst you will not.
The scarey part is that other people or observers will likely not tell the difference and may assume it's your original self experiencing things when it's merely a copy, a different entity having the experiences.

A transfer of consciousness rather than a copy is required.
Move your brain to another body one way or another. Doing this digitally seems unlikely as i don't see how to do it without only making a copy or a clone, which in that case you will not experience that clones experience due to it being a separate consciousness.

Keeping your brain alive and changing the body seems the most reliable way to ensure you are 100% you and you continue experiencing reality.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

2049 ai holo gf when

King_Martha
King_Martha

certainly you can with a certain probability
Cringe
subjectivity is the starting point for everything
Yet you have no physical definition of "subjectivity". Interesting.
consciousness (= you) doesn't exist
Provide tangable proof of consciousness.
untrustworthy
"untrustworthy" is a completely empty word in this regard. Your senses perceive the environment physically and convey the message physically to the brain. If they do that they work as designed, irrelevant of what they perceive, be it optical illusion or literally everything else.
ever heard of cogito ergo sum?
High school must be hard, champ. Did you start with the greek or did you go directly to edgemeister Nee~chee?

consciousness being immaterial
Since nothing can be "immaterial", it's pointless.

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5mileys
5mileys

jesus christ, you're not even arguing anymore. riddle me this one last question: do you also deny the existence of qualia, and if not, what do you think they are if not something immaterial?

w8t4u
w8t4u

Or you can just kill the original so there is no divergence

iluvmen
iluvmen

user you're being deliberately retarded. As was already stated, the ONLY thing that you have proof of is your own consciousness. Literally everything else can only be taken of faith. "Cogito Ergo Sum", it's like one of the most important statements ever made.
If you don't understand this and don't start your philosophy from this axis you will NEVER understand anything and never get "correct" answers to any questions you ask.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

Cringe
It seems you have gotten lost on your way. Here, friend, let me help you out:
/r/catalog#s=eddit

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Firespawn
Firespawn

qualia
I cringed irl
/bant/

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RumChicken
RumChicken

As was already stated, the ONLY thing that you have proof of is your own consciousness. Literally everything else can only be taken of faith. "Cogito Ergo Sum", it's like one of the most important statements ever made.
Is this some post-ironic satire? What are you "thinking" in a universe without free will, you brick? Metaphysicsfags are just braindead, I fucking swear.

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BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

So you don't believe in subjecyive experience altogether, but you believe you exist because your subjective senses tell you so?

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

It could be possible through augmenting the transferer with control mechanisms for the new body, so that they experience both bodies and both brains for a time. You might have to do it during the gestation of the original human. Possibly genetic manipulation to help interface tech. Whatever the methods, I don't see a way around the person feeling like they've lost something once they're only in the artificial body. It would be like losing a leg, arm and eye at the same time.

I'd say the best thing to do would be to have the artificial body accompany the original everywhere to reduce instances of the brain getting two experiences at once, which while a human brain could probably handle if they grew up that way, would exacerbate the feelings of loss.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

subjective anything
subjectivity exists in a world guided purely by physical interactions at all

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Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

Holy shit, you are actually retarded not just pretending to be. Nevermind then.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

spoilers: you die every night, you're nothing more than a continuation of your memories that give you an image of self

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5mileys
5mileys

Determinism is literally disproven via quantum mechanics you fucking moron, lmao you ACTUALLY believe in determinism, what are you from the 1800's?

takes2long
takes2long

Imagine actually believing such bullshit just so you can fantasize about living in a computer.
I feel really bad for such stupid cowardly people.
Spoilers: your brain never turns off, even when in a coma. Your consciousness NEVER stops so long as your brain doesn't die.

massdebater
massdebater

Determinism
being a copenhagenian pleb
A probabilistic universe also doesn't give you free will, dumbass.

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idontknow
idontknow

Only Memenhagen isn't deterministic and there's a reason it's falling to the wayside. Pilot Wave is the future.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

Pilot Wave
*Everett

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Ignoramus
Ignoramus

Everette is fucking retarded, believing it is actually hilarious.
Pilot wave is okay, but it's just shoehorning determinism for cowards.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

will you marry me?

hairygrape
hairygrape

user you didn't get it

Emberburn
Emberburn

lowbrow: just copy yourself so your consciousness moves into the computer
midbrow: you cannot move your consciousness, it is bound to matter
highbrow: personal power (not to be confused with social rank and acquisition of goods) is what matters, and any action which does not strive to further this power is decadent and should be discarded, and at the same time no sacrifice is great enough for a large enough ambition. Just copy yourself into the computer, die, and let your cybernetically augmented clone climb even further

Soft_member
Soft_member

conciousness = ram
you can virtualise ram

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TalkBomber
TalkBomber

mind uploading a meme. the real way is through memory prosthetics. this is real science.

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AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

in rats

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

You don't lose consciousness when that happens you moron.

viagrandad
viagrandad

I've solved the hard problem of consciousness

SniperWish
SniperWish

The best part of this debate is if mind uploading is possible you don't know if you are the original or the copy until after it happens. The you right now could just be the copy reviewing it's memories.
The you right now might even be a copy of a copy.
Fucking trippy.

StonedTime
StonedTime

muh nigga

DeathDog
DeathDog

what is a dissociative coma

i agree it's not an "erase" of consciousness but it bring it to very low level

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

hard problem of consciousness
Take your highschooler fanfic-tier memes to /trash/

Illusionz
Illusionz

load of shit, but great jewish idea to make money.

Playboyize
Playboyize

gets it
doesnt gets it

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

Death is peace, to me
Why the fuck would I want to spend more time on this forgotten petri-dish of a planet?

Flush this place

RavySnake
RavySnake

rate of change is not time limited though, just informational. If Joe gets a 12 gauge to the skull in 1997 with brain state A, and somehow scientists create an exact informational replica brain A' in 2018 and let it run, Joe won't even skip a beat from state A to state A' to state B', just as he wouldnt have if in 1997 his brain naturally changed from state A to state B if the shotgun jammed and he just kept moving through time normally.

DeathDog
DeathDog

what is dreamless sleep

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

You wouldn't do it on your death bed? If you're gonna die soon anyway, it'd be nice to know you're leaving behind an immortal copy of yourself.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

and to counter the "no two objects can ever really be identical" argument note that we're just talking about an informational replica- this is where the science comes in. We need to test these limits in terms of what is included- right now it looks like it might just be limited to active firing, with the underlying states of neurons obviously influencing long term personality but not creating consciousness (it doesn't matter if gene A or gene B is making you ride Delta waves- the experience is the same if the firing is the same [obvi gene A vs gene B might have long term differences and change firing eventually, but anything that isn't moving at the speed of light is just a background player])

cum2soon
cum2soon

kek

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

True Immortality is possible
it's always been possible - simply reproduce as many times as you can to create others containing your DNA.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

There's one specific sperg on here who argues til he's blue in the face that qualia are an illusion and that people are automatons. Because apparently the idea he's a biological machine who has the false impression of free will is more comforting to him than accepting his own subjective experience as it's own evidence

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

How2transferConsciousness: the unscientific step-by-step guide for dummies

1. Figure out the programming and operating language of the brain
2. Build an artificial brain that emulates a living one but with manmade materials; if it does quantum shit then you also do quantum shit somehow
3. Connect artificial brain to the original
4. Find a way to get original to recognize artificial as a newly grown part of itself, slowly duplicating functions and memories between the two
5. Wait
6. As original biological brain starts to fail and die due to old age, artificial brain starts to take over some of the work as part of the natural survival mechanism
7. Eventually artificial brain has taken responsibility over all of the old functions
8. Human consciousness successfully transferred from meatbag brain to beepboop brain

takes2long
takes2long

A lot of misunderstandings about identity and consciousness in this post.

TreeEater
TreeEater

misunderstandings
(You).exe is not (You2).exe
(You2).exe is on different hardware
(You).exe does not reference anything in the same memory as (You2).exe
But if new hardware is attached to old hardware running (You).exe, it can be possible for the original (You) to continue existing even after the old hardware has perished.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

I never said death and loss of "consciousness" (as in brain death) it's not reversible.
create an exact informational replica
This will only be true if they manage to assemble all the scattered atoms making up state A. If you assemble identical (in function), but different atoms, it won't continue it, only create glib facsimile states A1, A2...An ad infinitum.

Actually, if the universe is cyclic, after n cycles, sheer probability will "ressurect" you right from the moment of death. Since you can only perceive time when you're "alive", these probability cycles will seem instant and you'll be immortal from your point of view, while infinite universes pass by for the right conditions to align an reassemble state A, so as to avoid your death.

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