How does one legitimately practice writing fiction?
Everyone says "Just write and keep writing" and while it's certainly true you can't practice an art without actually doing it, but that doesn't mean you aren't practicing terribly and reinforcing bad habits.
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you're thinking of writing practice in the same context as arts/sports that require fine motor skills. "reinforcing bad habits" is a lot hard when you can write a slowly as you want and the produce is perfectly preserved to look at afterward.
just edit and have people shit on your work
>reinforcing bad habits doesn't exist for writing
If you write long run-on sentences constantly, that's a bad habit
If you usually write flat characters, that's a bad habit
If your dialogue always sounds stiff, that's a bad habit
This may be a SHOCKING and REVOLUTIONARY idea, but have you ever AT LEAST ONCE considered the POSSIBILITY of taking, WAIT FOR IT, a CREATIVE WRITING COURSE at a UNIVERSITY?
your 'quote' is completely unrelated to what i said
just edit and have people shit on your work
There's countless writers who write well and never went to uni
and yet OP is clearly not one of those writers. if only there was some sort of public institution that offered courses on basic fiction writing tools
But the implication remains that uni and proper fiction writing aren't correlated.
Just because people point out problems, doesn't mean you magically learn how to get better at whatever problem they've pointed out.
read a lot, read deeply (more than once or twice) figure out what great authors do well (emotion, plot, characters, prose, dialogue), try to replicate that in your own work
But if you take note of those problems that are pointed out and then try to do something different (even if you're just randomly trying things out because you don't know how to get better) chances are you'll eventually do something that people don't hate
Why is writing the only art where practitioners are expected to be self-taught or possess inherent ability?
Are real writers even taught letters in pre-school or do they simply possess a knowledge of language at a genetic level?!?
>just edit and have people shit on your work
This, honestly.
Because the publishing world is one of the last circle-jerks yet to be broken. I can only hope with self-publishing becoming more of a thing, it can be properly dismantled.
>Because the publishing world is one of the last circle-jerks yet to be broken.
Have you seen the modern art scene?
Inspiration has been the standard pose since Homer.
Or in other word, "No, I'm not lying to you, this all came to me in a dream." Because non-literary people are very concerned about being lied to by writers.
It's also one of the few ways readers can reconcile their creative infertility with a love of literature. If loving and thinking about literature does not lead to writing, then writers must have something readers don't - how embarrassing that would be! Good thing they have a "gift," and receive "inspiration." That means they don't have a bigger lit peen.
The vulgar resentment in these attitudes makes me ill. Just thinking about it makes me feel as if I've accidentally watched television news and been exposed to its middle-brow mouthiness. Appalling. I have to go.
Not OP but this kind of things doesn't exist in my country.
You must live in a literal shithole
Even African nations have higher education and writer's classes
I keep a recorder on me. Then listen to random ideas I had through the day. Then I will write out and Expand on my favorite ideas or themes. I learned to write better just by focusing on short 9-15 page stories. the more you write the better you become.
The intention of why and what you write will never be the same as the reactions to what you write. Most people are just trying to be nice and won't be truthful with you about your work even if it sucks. I dont ever let anyone read anything I write unless I actually think it's good.
>3rd world countries (US included) have stupid and useless courses to suck the money out of students
Shocking! Shocking I say!
/thread
Being able to edit yourself into readability is just as important as being able to express a creative idea in the first place.
I live in a country that doesn't include courses in useless shit like the anglo-saxons do. Educate yourself one second about how universities work in other countries and maybe the shitbag you use for a brain might start thinking clearer.
>I know everything there is to know on this subject from anime and related imageboards
>I greentext bullshit based on literally nothing he said
What county my dude?
I refuse to believe there are no creative writing courses in your country unless you live in Venezuela or Syria
I live in France and such a thing doesn't exist. There are litterature classes but no uni offers creative writing course.
And before you ask I live in a city known for its universities, attracts a lot of other European students.
So this is why French literature is shit
Read a lot, write and rewrite your own shit, and ask people for critique (this last step is the least important though).
>implying all creative writing classes aren't the epitome of defecation
you either have the gift or you dont
Yeah, in all of humanity's creativity, Writing is the one art that can't be mastered through dedication and hard work
Fuckhead
>French literature
>Shit
Keep dreaming my boy.
>Flaubert
>Maupassant
>Hugo
>Fucking Baudelaire
>Rabelais
>Houellebecq
to be fair houellebecq is kinda shitty
>imblying
mate you have to be the worst of plebs to actually think France doesn't have one of the greatest's literally legacies.
He's controversial but he's still a rather influencial contemporary writer. It was for the sake of not citing too many 19th authors.
These are a waste.
this separates the creative writer from the motivated author
The reality is that there is no set method and some people are lucky and find it easy and write tonnes and other will never write anything good no matter how much they write or study. Real life isn't like a university course where it's designed so anyone can pass with reasonable effort.
Someone needs to say it.
I struggle with making interesting plot.
I thought of going through my ideas book and making as many full plots with beginnings, middles and ends as I can, for practise. Maybe even end up with something usable.
Sounds like a good idea?
>lucky
*determined
>find it easy
*never stop practicing
FTFY
Coming up with a plot is one of the easiest parts of writing, and if you can't do that I have bad news for you, user.
A lot of them still got instruction from editors. Kurt Vonnegut's essay on what value there might be in teaching writing is pretty good on this topic.
Reading good work is the other part of "practice" that goes with simply sitting down to do the work. Read a lot, keep writing, and you'll develop a sensibility. You need some amount of talent, but you don't necessarily have to be genius-level to create something decent if you combine consistent work, study of good works guided by some inherent artistic sensibility, and whatever talent you have.
You think? Still, I've had some good comments on other aspects of my work (apart from being teared a few new assholes as well), so I'm not going to give up just yet.
Hopefully working on my weakest areas will come useful later.
If you're really struggling to come up with interesting plots, I'd suggest studying the bible and the Greeks. You'd be surprised on how many of the best story ideas are heavily taken from those two things.
Write short stories, 7500 words or less. Edit the stories until they can be considered "good". As you manage to write more and more good short stories, you'll learn to make them bigger while still retaining quality.
To try and write a 80000 word novel right away, for example taking a literary shit during november, will only give you words and nothing to read.
This is actually good advice. It's also a lot easier to get a short story published, and receive critiques for. I always laugh at the new "writers" on this board that shit out a 200-300 book and self-publish on amazon since nobody wants to touch it.
>200-300 book
200k, I presume?
And yeah, even if novel writing is a different beast, I still advocate for writing at least some decent short stories first
Memeing or actual advice?
Nah, I meant pages. But I've seen 100-200k word fanfic tier books from this board. Truly terrifying stuff. Every time I read a first chapter from somebody of this board I shrink back in horror upon the realization that there's much more of this garbage awaiting some unfortunate reader.
I'm pretty sure anyone can be published if they work enough for it.
It *is* a lot of work though. It can be a hell lot of work depending on... Luck. But I still believe anyone can do it. Only the workload changes.
That's actual advice. What part of that makes you think it's memeing? I swear that after you read the bible and the greeks suddenly literature takes on an entirely different meaning. You see references and allusions everywhere you look. The bible alone is the ultimate dose of member berries.
If you cannot take a passage from the bible and turn it into a good short story, you are truly without hope.
Almost none of Shakespeare's plots are originals and yet he's still considered one of the greatest writers in the English language.
Plots are memes, my dude. It's about delivery and presentation.
Not him, but as for the Greeks there's at least short things to read and they are indeed very important works. It's not what I'd advise though. I'd prefer to study things that you really like, and break them down to see how you could improve yourself.
This may not answer your question that well, but I can at least share my method of writing with you.
I start with "storyboarding" (writing out the main ideas of the story very generally)
Then, I write down those ideas and expand upon them
And after that, I refine and edit everything
Usually the stories I write don't exceed fifteen pages, so I recommend starting with short stories. Also, if an idea starts to seem bad to you, just keep writing and see if you can finish strong. Hope this helped.
Language is an Esoteric first and foremost
What picture/s/ do your threads paint?
youtu.be/gAuisFJ6sBk
>Language is an Esoteric Science first and foremost
>Muh Cyberpunk
A Mistake
it's back
It implies that you review and critique your own writing
If you didn't think your work was great, why did you stop working on it?
Review and critique implies a "finished" product
A mere sentence is a finished product.
The first one can be useful but diminishing returns kicks in quickly unless its a really good teacher/group.
It's good for someone who has never been criticized or sat in a discussion where writing isn't treated as a black box magical process.
In the same sense that a mere brushstroke is a finished product, sure.
But good luck getting it hung up in a gallery.
It's basically a pass/fail test of "Can I willingly show my work to others?"
you should have a theory of fiction derived from copious reading in your preferred genre
Here's an excerpt of my writing for reference, this is my level of ability, so you can judge my advice based on that if you like.
My advice which I've learned through trial-and-error as well as reading books on the craft of writing:
>Exercise is crucial to longevity as a writer
>Separate PC use from entertainment
>Do chores to build motivation
>Write for as much and as long as you can in one sitting first thing after waking up, or first available opportunity
>Learn how to write to a time-schedule
>Learn how to write and finish short stories in one sitting
I'll expand on any of these points upon request.
>>Learn how to write and finish short stories in one sitting
Why
Here's the link
imgur.com
This is why you don't attempt to write short stories in one sitting. I thought a couple sentences were alright, but man...it was really boring. A lot of mistakes and just very trite and uninspired in general.
The reason for this is based on my own trial-and-error of what works for me. I've attempted to write the first draft of my first novel in recent months. I kept up a great schedule of daily writing, managing about two hours on average a day, which was enough for me to feel like I was making consistent progress.
I wrote over a hundred pages of material and I would say only the early stuff is even worth reading. The rest of it is dull garbage. The reason for this is that the I was writing mechanically, meaning I would just continue when I left off the day before wherever I was in the story, and you can tell when you read the work because things are happening, but at the same time nothing in the story matters or has any resonance.
The reason for this is because the inspiration for a story's first draft is only at its best the first time you attempt it. I don't plan ahead what I write anymore. I just write a title like "The Smoker" and then wake up, do my morning writing which is just me putting random thoughts on the page, I go for my 20 minute morning run, and then once I've done that I sit down, start the short story with the title as a prompt, and I don't stop writing it until I'm finished.
At first the story starts as a kind of prose-poem-essay, but as I write a scene comes into focus with characters talking to each other, and the whole thing organically develops with the story telling me where it wants to go, and me following as best I can. It's a way of finding your own voice as a writer instead of imitating other authors, because you're writing without a plan and on the fly in one sitting, there's no time to imitate, you can only tell the truth and follow what interests you in the moment in the story.
The stories I write this way are significantly better than the ones I try to architect from the beginning.
Read "Zen in the Art of Writing" and "Becoming a Writer" for much better explanations.
That's a very interesting point of view. I will try this, thanks.
I suppose this is true. The first one was useful in that I had no idea what others thought of my writing. But all I received was praise, and I continued receiving praise with my second class, so I stopped and decided that was of no use to me. Understandably, I hold myself to higher standards than do my peers but hearing what others like about my writing only takes me so far.