Is there any literature that even comes close to top tier music? I think know, but feel free to prove me wrong...

Is there any literature that even comes close to top tier music? I think know, but feel free to prove me wrong. Literature at it's best approaches music but never quite gets there.

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*I think not

Yep

Except you can say more with literature than you can with music

Literature at its best is the polar opposite of music.

such as? but you can SHOW much more with music, which is a more pure and truthful process, because it doesn't rely on the faulty mechanism of language

U L Y S S E S
Better than music, film, all of literature, it's practically a perfect piece of art

maybe you're just more /mu/ than Veeky Forums

what do u mean by that?

Music is entirely sensuous and comprehensible mostly emotionally. Literature at its heights can have a more cerebral, intellectual message. They're different; you could say literature is "drier" and more active in its requirements, music more passive (you just listen to it). The sounds of a song (disregarding lyrics may not ennoble you and make you a better person, leave you permanently changed for the better, but good literature or philosophy might.

>Literature at it's best approaches music but never quite gets there
What did you mean by that?

Lolita
Catcher
Macbeth
Frankenstein
Taoteching
Night
Ulysses
Moby Dick
Watt

I second this user, but disagree that music cannot shape character. You should read Plato's Republic: listening to certain tunes and rhythms encourages the character in certain ways. Not just in the obvious ways; of course somehow who listens to music promoting violence himself comes to promote violence, but this isn't even Plato's main point. Think of Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries, which can make any endeavor seem glorious. Acclimating oneself to rowdy music makes one rowdy. Regardless of lyrical content.

On the other hand, there's something solipsistic in music, at least in the way it's consumed today. Reading a book is always a conversation between you and the author and characters; even when done alone, there's something more social about that activity. Music is not inherently a private activity, but most music is consumed privately now. So there's something less social about that, because you aren't conversing with the composer so much as reveling in the feelings the music brings out in you. "In music, the passions enjoy themselves." This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it isn't obviously good, either.

youtube.com/watch?v=XKSu-wZChcQ

Take for instance the greatest passages in Ulysses. I would say that they are beautiful, admirable works of art, but that they simply do not quite match up to the sheer beautiful of the greatest pieces by Mozart, Beethoven, Bach etc. Of course, this is subjective, but I find that most people agree with me. and to say, as did, that it is because literature's purpose is more intellectual, I think is also incorrect. Joyce was not much of a philosophical thinker, and Ulysses was not much of a philosophical book, nor should it be: the greatest passages of Ulysses are great because of their masterful replication of consciousness and aesthetic perfection... and yet I can never quite compare this beauty to the greatest moments in say, Beethoven's late string quartets. They seem to SHOW even more than Joyce, though they don't use language.

I see what you're getting at, but I would be loath to even attempt to compare the abilities of literature and music to connect to their respective audiences. There are sublime moments of connection in both literature and music, such as, as Nietzsche said, the feeling of dissolution into a communal celebration and affirmation of life in Beethoven's 9th, and the moments of recognition and relatability in reading Joyce. You should also keep in mind, that playing music (ie on an instrument) can also be considered a form of "consumption," in a certain sense, and that the feeling of connection in playing an instrument in conjunction with others is perhaps more intense than any I have experienced in reading a novel

>playing instruments for self and others
Okay, good point. There is a communal aspect to this, or should be. And, conversely, most people are bad readers who just read to see themselves reflected back at them. So part of the problem may be the way that these two art forms are enjoyed today.

Sometimes I do feel this way

The best music is all about itself. The best literature is about is about all but itself.

elaborate please

Good music doesn't "mean" anything. Good literature makes "nothing" meaningful. Good music exists outside of the world. Good literature is indistinguishable from the world. Good music imposes itself. Good literature lets itself be imposed on.

do you think you're coming across as intelligent with these embarrassingly shallow and poorly conceived thoughts?

Don't listen to them, user. I liked it.

/mu/ is kill.
it's just a bunch of comfy-zone bastards that follow RYM and pitchfork opinions.
And of course, kpop, grimeth and some more waifufaggery.

As wonderful as music is, it has never made me tear up. I can't say the same thing about literature. Literature can creep inside your soul in a very special way that music can't. Music is beauty, literature can be a reflection on one's life, which can be deeply troubling, or perhaps sentimental in the happiest of ways. When is the last time music has given you an existential crisis? Music can help ease the symptoms of such a crisis, but I doubt it could ever be the cause. Ideally, a person should embrace both to be well rounded.

That's not neoclassical you cretin, that's just ambient and some monotonous experimental shit

>monotonous experimental shit

oh, yes, it's the yellow thinking smiley...

No, no literature comes close to music in being able to touch the core of the human soul the way music can. Good music is the voice of the gods

Imagine giving Ulysses or Dostoevsky to some isolated tribe somewhere. Even if translated into a language they knew, they still couldn't make sense of it with all the cultural and philosophical context. But play them a beat, a melody, a harmony, some Mozart... They will understand it. Music requires no translation

How do I get into Veeky Forums music?

Op did you just read the Birth of Tragedy? If not do so immediately.

...

youtube.com/watch?v=YqXZtGyFyDo
This piece of music is the peak of human civilization

>"If only there were a dogma to believe in. Everything is contradictory, everything is tangential; there are no certainties anywhere. Everything can be interpreted one way and then again interpreted in the opposite sense. The whole of world history can be explained as development and progress and can also be seen as nothing but decadence and meaninglessness. Isn't there any truth? Is there no real and valid doctrine?"

>When I composed those verses I was preoccupied less with music than with an experience—an experience in which that beautiful musical allegory had shown its moral side

It's a little bit cloying by today's standards but you get the idea.

>Can you tell me, don Juan, specifically, what is wrong with my stories? I know that they are nothing, but the rest of my life is just like that."

>"I will repeat this to you," he said. "The stories of a warrior's album are not personal. Your story of the day you were admitted to school is nothing but your assertion about you as the center of everything. You feel, you don't feel; you realize, you don't realize. Do you see what I mean? All of the story is just you."

>"But how can it be otherwise, don Juan?" I asked.

>"In your other story, you almost touch on what I want, but you turn it again into something extremely personal. I know that you could add more details, but all those details would be an extension of your person and nothing else."

>"I sincerely cannot see your point, don Juan," I protested. "Every story seen through the eyes of the witness has to be, perforce, personal."

>"Yes, yes, of course," he said, smiling, delighted as usual by my confusion. "But then they are not stories for a warrior's album. They are stories for other purposes. The memorable events we are after have the dark touch of the impersonal. That touch permeates them. I don't know how else to explain this."

do you even music?
youtube.com/watch?v=pSfcE3HH7dk

Music pleases the body while literature touches the soul.

Please, youtu.be/wygy721nzRc?t=33m35s

please never post again

You too, retard.

>Beethoven
Pretty acceptable
>Chopin
Get out

Still blows my mind that Beethoven composed this.

sauce? Is this Carlos Castaneda?

They do completely different things you stupid pleb

holy fuck, execute thyself

What's Beethoven's greatest work?

youtube.com/watch?v=kIQH9OVH_MM

His 21st piano sonata.

missa solemnis, late string quartets, eroica, 5th, 9th, diabelli variations are my personal favorites but there's so much it's hard to say

youtube.com/watch?v=DxtAHpYIXdU

Can music do this?

youtube.com/watch?v=jmex-7V0IRI

That comic is actually genius.

yes

youtube.com/watch?v=Bf1oUkOHFtk

Last piano sonata.

Now let's talk about the greatest composer of all time - pic related.

>thyself
Unironical reddit.

wrong

Let's be honest; it's Mozart. Nobody can touch the human soul with such simplicity, such elegance. He maybe overplayed, but never overrated

Everything that is available to literature is also available to operatic and vocal music.
Checkmate

only if you'r a women

Lol
Little thing called J.S. Bach breh

yep

based castaneda

Bach is amazing no doubt, but he is almost too perfect, too mathematical. Wolfie is more emotional, more human

>Bach is mathematical and non-emotional, non-human

This is how I know you're autistic. Bach is by far the most passionate artist in history. His music IS humanity.

>Bach is amazing no doubt, but he is almost too perfect, too mathematical
This is how I feel about Tolstoy

wrong, both are beyond human. humanity and human experience is not worthy of comparison with their music. beethoven I would say is the most human of composers.

the miracle of bach is that his mind blowingly complex perfect mathematical music is also full of divine wonder AND fucking joyous dance everywhere. he does it all, it satiates the mind, the spirit, the soul, and it's even fucking fun.

this thread has essentially confirmed the fact that music is superior to literature

Wrong.
If Bach was beyond humanity he wouldn't be so deeply resonate with us. Bach makes even normies pause.

All wrong. The answer is Wagner.

>Wagner

Pure ideology lol

and spectacle

>both are beyond human. humanity and human experience is not worthy of comparison with their music. beethoven I would say is the most human of composers.
Actually I can agree with this, especially Beethoven being the most human. However if he's the most human then Mozart is the most angelic, the most heavenly. Bach is beautiful though more grounded and cerebral I would say

lol nah. do you sincerely think that or are you just being a tryhard

wrong, bach and mozart's music elevates rather than relates with humanity because it provides a perfection to strive for, something desired by and dreamed about by us imperfect and degenerate humans, but not to be found in our lives or experience. the romantics show the depths and profundity of the human spirit, but bach and mozart show us something greater: their music does not so much resonate with us but rather brings into view a world far beyond our own, something to be yearned for and wept over in its absence and worshipped in its presence but remaining always above us.

wrong. Bach's music is elevated because humans have an elevated part of their being. Humanity is a walking contradiction, equal parts degenerate and noble.
Did you forget that Bach was a man too?

wow this is turning really pretentious, I gotta admit. let's agree to disagree. was fun playing word games with you, though, my lad

>let's agree to disagree

Nah, I'll take this as your concession of defeat.
I've dominated you intellectually just like my penis would dominate you physically.

I could beat the shit out of you and make you wear a frilly dress while I fuck u up your tight rectum, honey. or would u prefer to lick my asshole clean?

right
More or less said the same thing in a different way

no you're dumb

brehs
youtube.com/watch?v=N-mA9OMP3DE

There is no literature on this Earth that can come close to the beauty of the Cavatina from op. 130. Debate me.

Probably the closest thing we will get to knowing what his deafness was like.

literally shut your ears and your deafness will be exactly the same as anyone else's lmao

How do you know Beethoven's deafness was the same as anyone else's

It's not just the deafness, it's everything with it, but clearly you're baiting.

deafness is just the absence of hearing, it doesn't come in flavors

>it doesn't come in flavors
You think everyone's experience of deafness is the same?
What if someone is born deaf? What if someone was born with hearing but became deaf at a young age? What if someone can hear most of their life but then gradually lose hearing, like Beethoven? What if someone is just 50 or 75 or 95% deaf? What if someone is deaf in one ear?
Don't be daft

This. And what if that person was a musician?

youtube.com/watch?v=Oct3qvTqa2g

Anyone else try composing stuff?

>William Fartwrangler....

What's the top tier of music?

Yeah I'm reading Harmony and Voice Leading

I like Bach. youtube.com/watch?v=kJvYYBGYW50