Just applied for law school, Veeky Forums. Any essential legal core / philosophy book recs?

If applying in the States- Learned Hand's The Spirit of Liberty, etc. Also, Gunther's bio of Hand. Make sure he's your legal hero going in. Help keep his spirit alive.

Read Hans Kelsen and Norberto Bobbio.
You gon b gud

Everyone told me that, and I didnt listen. Got accepted, and then saw this chart. Then I looked at avg debt, and IBR/PSLF availability vs number of grads vs public interest jobs.

Fucking dropped

I hope you are at least considering to learn german, spanish, french, italian and Latin. Basically every relevant philosopher wrote about law. Norberto Bobbio, Giovanni Sartori, Carlos Santiago Nino, Ferrajoli, Atienza, Hans Kelsen, John Rawls, Aristotle, Plato, Hegel, del Vecchio, Saint Thomas, Thomas Moore, Robert Alexy, Francisco Suarez, Rudolf von Ihering, Savigny, Planiol, Ripert, Boulanger, Messineo, Vivante, Domenico Barbero, Francesco Carnelutti, Giuseppe Chiovenda, Piero Calamandrei, Francesco Carrara, Luis Jiménez de Asúa, Colin et Capitant, Mazeaud, Tung, Michelle Taruffo, Schmitt, Loewenstein, Agamben, Duverger, Hauriou, Garcia Pelayo... The list is some never ending shit. I also seriously hope you're going to law school in a non common law country (civil law).

who are all those lawyers getting paid exactly $160,000? what government position is that?

Those are big firm jobs, they start at 160-200ish depending on what market you're in. Government jobs typically pay between 45 and 70ish to start (the higher end being a federal position located in DC or a very expensive city like NYC or San Fran).

A big firm job is lots of money, but I hope you like working 80+ hours a week, even during Christmas, until you're 70 years old.

>Almost no German legal theorists
>No Portuguese legal philosopher
>No Brazilian legal theorist
Kys

Thats's just basic stuff, but enlighten me. Seriously. I also like Werner Goldschmidt.

>monkeys
>laws

>Forgetting about based Von Liszt
He's judging you, user

Kek

Wishimajoredinbusiness.jpg
I doubled in history and political science....Poli sci should have been business.

I'm retaking the LSAT in the winter. I didn't study which was retarded (got a 152). Hope to go into IP law or something at U of I.

Is this a mistake? I don't need to make Gordan Gecko bucks. Just $100,000. You don't get any happier making more than that anyway and I recognize time with your wife and kids is important because I'm not a moron. Any jobs with my shitty law-only degrees that pay $100,000? I figured I'd start with a higher salary in law and I also like it.

starting salary for junior associates in major markets is $180k

holmes, the common law
posner, the essential holmes

you cant go into IP with a B.A. lol

Wait what how? Well it wasn't just IP. Few other areas of interest.

Basically is corporate law in general worth it

You need a hard science or engineering BS to go into patent. You can't sit for the exam (you have to get an additional certification as a patent attorney along with your regular law license) without one. I mean you could maybe worm your way into doing arts stuff, like working with record labels and such, but you'll never touch most IP work without being registered with the USPTO.

Corporate law is a very nebulous term that encompasses a lot of different things. Typically it's transactional work: mergers and acquisitions, negotiating contracts, that sort of thing. Whether it's "worth it" is something that only you can answer.

You need to work on your LSAT, seriously take a class if you can, it took me from a 151 (no studying at all) to a 163. If you want a big firm job, which are pretty much the only ones that are going to start in the 100k+ range, you need to be prepared to work like you've never worked before in your life during law school, AND you need to be smart about picking your classes and lucky enough to not get fucked over by a grading curve. You also can't be a complete autist, you need to be able to get through an interview without saying something weird. A big firm won't even look at you when you're coming out of school unless you have absolutely stellar grades and/or serious connections. Also, this goes without saying, but you'll never get a job with a big firm coming out of some fly by night law school or a shitty one in a big market. If you can't get into a T14 school, look at going to a big state school in the area where you want to work. Like if you wanted to work in Atlanta and couldn't get into an Ivy, Vandy, Duke, etc. I would try to go to Georgia, Alabama, UNC, etc.

I work for a state government agency doing healthcare regulation and trying administrative cases. My hours are excellent, but the work is only so-so (I spend most of my days taking licenses from nurses and doctors with drug problems) and the pay is atrocious, I only make 70k after being here for 5 years. It's not a bad gig and I'm gonna stay in government for another 5 years to get my loans forgiven but I'm definitely not happy with my situation.

I don't know where you're from, but the top legal theorists all know Portuguese and are affiliated with Portuguese and Brazilian colleges.

>the top legal theorists all know Portugese are and affiliated with Portuguese and Brazilian colleges
Sure, sure, keep telling yourself this buddy.

>Just applied for law school
My condolences

>applied

you're not gonna get in desu

Could you back up those claims with some serious book recs?

about to start my first year, full ride at t20

i'd rec schmitt's nomos of the earth for fun

cicero

which t20?

Scott Turow's One L is an accurate description of what the emotional and psychological experience of the first year of law school is like.

Karl Llewellyn's The Bramble Bush is a little dated, but is accurate in its own way.

None of these sorts of books are going to help you succeed, however.

The key to success is to do the reading and then prepare an outline after each class, and then synthesize your daily outlines into a weekly outline on the weekend. Then use these weekly outlines to build up an overall course outline.

If you exercise this discipline, you will likely do well on the exams, because you will have synthesized the body of law you need to apply to the exam to "spot the issues."

Practicing law was the worst thing I ever did in my life. Don't fall for the meme, your life will be dogshit

Jurgen Habermas' Theory of Communicative Action

Also shoutout to my advisor Roberto Unger and `What Should Legal Analysis Become'. Frankly I don't know if it's the best starting point for Unger but it's sufficiently accessible and interesting.

He seems interesting. Tell us more?

Yeah I'm going to self study with powerscore books. It memed this one shill from a low 15X to a 175. Getting around your score is exactly what I intend to do. I really appreciate the tips. Thank you.

Also I live by Chicago. I plan to go to U of I, with aid if my LSAT is up to snuff.

As I said I don't want a big meme lawyer gig. Maybe starting salary of 50-60k? Then increase to 90-100 over some time. Maybe max out at 125. I know if I ask for anything more I'm going to be worked like a complete dog and I'm not made that way. I'm work to live, I don't live to work. Some people are wired to ALWAYS work. If given an axe on an island, they'll chop every tree down. This is the top guys (or girls) in every firm, business, etc. It's made of people who are hard wired like that. Fffffuck that! I'm the guy trying to surf, cracking open a coconut, or laying in the sun on the island after my work is done.

Your gig sounds comfy. Wouldn't mind that. And it sounds useful. I can deal with 70k for a little bit. Mind if I ask what your starting pay was?

Maybe I'll just do something like that. Also, my buddy at WU Madison Law said colleges that "specialize" is all advertising. You can go anywhere which is why it's best to go to t20. U of I is like top 40ish and I can easily land a job in the area so I'm cool with that.

Is it because you tried being the top dog instead of being comfy on the low end? Did you do public law?

I'm only looking for my salary to max at 125 which is insanely high. Give me a break, a person doesn't need anything higher than that (and even then...). Take your mammon somewhere else.

Happiness doesn't increase after 100k anyway. It's like we're not meant to make more than that...Books are cheap anyway. Plenty to do for little $...

Lol, I don't think you understand. If you you're lucky enough to even find work as a lawyer, you either work a lot, or you throw your whole life into your career. Sure, there are people who live in bumfuck farming communities who hang a shingle and do whatever comes their way, but it's exceedingly difficult to do even that as a young lawyer with little experience. You'll work just as hard for a fraction of the money and no benefits. Law is a SHIT profession unless your dad is a partner.

I work as a hospital administrator now and make more money with MUCH more free time. If I hadn't wasted my time with law, I'd probably be in an even better position.

Damn. Why did it get so shit? My uncle is friends with a pretty big shot lawyer. Will that count? A judge gave me his cell # for intern work. Am I in a decent position?

Hospital administration...Sounds like a business degree?

>applied
fist get accepted
>philosophy book recs
If you get accepted you will be too busy reading actual laws. If you do have free time , bill of right,magna carta and The Universal Declaration of Human Rights are a good pass time, learn their history and what they actually mean. maybe you will be among the few who actually gets concept of free speech and can the difference between passive and active euthanasia

>If you get accepted you will be too busy reading actual laws

I get that; my brother does law so I have an idea of what I would be doing when/if I start. I wanted some recs to get a nice broad understanding of law, and some philosophical/theoretical books to frame my thinking.

Is law school a new meme or something? Seen heaps of posts saying "I'm going to law school what should I read".

Lol

Shhh...It's suppsed to be a secret. Everyone's been so scared for years a few of us have been memeing that now might be a good time to get in while everyone's running in the other direction

>frame my thinking
Don't. framing your thinking will get in the way during learning. make passing and learning your main goal, you can always start framing after. also actually learn, I know many law students who "passed" all their classes but have not been able to pass the bar exam for 3 + years. chances are your teachers will recommend you tons of supplementary materials which you will never touch because you won't have time.
>broad understanding
avoid that as well. chances are you will start mixing up methodology of various branches or countries. basically save all that for when you are actually working. If you have free time, consider getting an internship in the area you wish to pursue

Unless you're aiming to get onto the supreme court reading legal theory/philosophy is a waste of your time. You aren't Atticus Finch and your job isn't to debate ethics and restructure society. Your job is to read fuckhuge books on the intricacies of contract law and remember enough to pass exams. Read everything you're told to in school and structure your life and consistent studying. The lack of good advice on studying law is staggering, all you need to do is read the basic shit consistently.

This is all that matters.

Can anyone speak for University of Iowa (t20)? It's highly ranked but I heard somewhere it doesn't accurately reflect it or something. Medians are low too which is enticing. Heck, UW-Madison (#33 or so, where my friend goes) has the median at 163. It's 161 at Iowa but is over ten spots higher!

>You aren't Atticus Finch and your job isn't to debate ethics and restructure society.

All law is a Jewish fiction, and cannot, does not now, never has, and never will apply meaningfully to human beings in the just and uniform manner to which it purports. And this because human beings are of different levels of power, and thus better able to avoid the law by factors such as luck, money, and so on.

To study the law is to devote your life to a lie, OP. One can imagine a slightly superior analogue to the present situation of hiring lawyers of various ability, where every party is required to be represented by the same dumb robot which does the same things all the time. There is fairness.

Also you might try the Constitution of the United States and the Declaration, assuming you're an American. But really you should instead murder yourself for considering the false profession of the law.

Lawyers remain the scum of the earth even and especially in the case when I might need one.

Read every non-law related book you want to read before class starts. You'll have basically no time to read for pleasure during the school year.

The rankings between 15 and 50 are pointless. Iowa is not "top 20" in the way Penn is top 14. Iowa might go down 20 spots in 3 years (this happened to my alma matter), then recover, for seemingly no reason. Go to Iowa if you want to work in Iowa, Wisconsin if Wisconsin. Unless you get a decent scholarship at one and nothing at the other, in which case follow the money. Under no situation should you take out more than $100k or so to go to a sub Top 14 (and that might be too high).

>comfy on the low end

30k with 200k in student loans doing contract work for some trip and fall firm is impossible to be comfy.

Unless your dad owns a firm, or you get an in writing guaranteed scholarship for all 3 years, bad idea.

I didn't go to law school. I went to prisons.

Possible way to be comfy (not what I did), if you know ahead of time what you want to do and don't screw up
>Get a 165
>Go to school in a state where assistant DA's make decent living (some states they start at $60k+ in higher cost of living ares, in Boston they start at $35k)
>Go to best school you get a full ride. Probably won't be a total shithole with no alumni base because you got a 165
>Take all the criminal law/trial ad classes. Intern at DA's offices. Do moot court
>Finish in the top 1/3rd

Congrats you have a under 50 hour a week gov't job putting away criminals with no debt.

>>Finish in the top 1/3rd in the first year
Not saying I dont admire your accomplishment, but surely you can offer the caveat that this is not only difficult, but sometimes luck based depending on the curve or the nature of your professor.

Don't do it unless (A) you will graduate without debt AND you already have a job lined up through a family member, etc.; OR (B) you actually know what being a lawyer involves and sincerely love it.

I hate it.

t. Attorney

just quit lmfao
theres a million other things you can do... unless youre in debt

Bingo. I had some scholarship offers to schools in the T50-80 range but they are grade-dependent. Law school grades too subjective for that. Went to one around T45 and have 200,000k in debt, including UG (fukkin' white male so few scholarship opportunities - seriously, got ALL the pre-law and PoliSci that was offered at my Tier 4 UG for a total of 1k x 3 years).

Another shitty aspect is that while attorneys basically have to be able to pick up anything new and learn it, we're rarely /really/ qualified to do much else.

*200k. I'm a retard today.

In law its competative to the point where you will have to be pulling 60-80 hour weeks as a junior for very little money after not becoming a shell of a human being in 10-15 years time you will know enough to either start your own practice, or sell your self to government agencies for stability.

Law is terrible at providing the lifestyle you want, its highly polarised salarywise and requires ludicrous amounts of hours to be worked. There is a reason why lawyers top the figures when it comes to the profession with the most substance abuse and depression outside of military and emergency services

> There is a reason why lawyers top the figures when it comes to the profession with the most substance abuse and depression outside of military and emergency services

Seems like every profession is this way.

Thanks. Yeah I'm basically not going at all if I don't get decent scholarships. ILfag here, U of I is probably where I'm headed.

Funny, 165 was what I was going to shoot for to get good U of I aidbucks.

Might copy this plan to the T.

That's not my accomplishment. I said I didn't do this. I finished at the median and have about $115k in debt

All of Bataille just so you can have an edgy motif.

To clarify, you got a scholarship right? But couldn't maintain what you needed to?

THE classic bait and switch meme.
Man I'm really feeling like all this is a huge scam

How close were you to him?

It goes without saying that you should have a solid understanding of Logic. Propositional, and if you can, First-Order, too.

Also, read this post (you can find some book recommendations therein): leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2016/10/going-to-law-school-thinking-about-law-school-what-should-you-read.html

Interesting. Thanks for this resource. Glad this thread at least stays circulating.

i suck cok

>Might copy this plan to the T.

Good grades on a curve are not the result of hard work.

What kind of shit is that? I just get good grades if I get lucky?

Fuck that noise what horse shit

youve never heard the stories of professors going to the top of a set of stairs, throwing final papers down the stairs, and having their teaching assistants grade the ones closest to the top A?

You realize at law schools, which are accepting based on similar grades (x school accepts 3.3 and 162 avg) so most of the students are exactly the same. But the professor has to provide grades on a curve. What do you do when you get an 87, 6 kids keep getting 99s, and the bulk of the class gets between 86 and 94, with a few 79s?

Underrated post.

This sounds like bullshit tbqh
All of the great law students excelled in school. Obama and Ted Cruz were both remembered by their professors as above the rest.

>Obama
>Ted Cruz

Harvard Law doesnt use fucking grades. NO-ONE fails and few honor, and it doesnt matter anyways because even if you dont clerk for the supreme court, you get to do some of the lower federal courts.

Have you done any research? Surely kids nowadays have a cynical law school info site on reddit. I used jdunderground

hls.harvard.edu/dept/ocs/employers/hls-grading-policy/

I'm currently in law school now and I honestly don't understand the obsession with big city firms. I'm one of the few that is fine with working in a medium sized city with a medium sized firm. Sure the pay isn't great starting out, but it scales nicely and you get a better life to work ratio.

Obama had a 2.something GPA...

seriously? nobody?

fpbp no problem

Obama had a B+ average at Occidental College and yet somehow got into Columbia University as a transfer student. Despite being a "top student", not a single professor can locate his thesis. Despite this flawed record, he went onto Harvard Law School. He became the head of the Harvard Law Review but never published anything. Every single sample of Obama's writing abilities retrieved from college newspapers has been a total crock of shit, and there would be no evidence of his writing ability except for one letter he supposedly wrote to his girlfriend about Eliot that was masterfully composed back at Occidental College. Even Obama's visiting lecturer days at the University of Chicago were about "race and the Constiturion" than any real topic involving intense legal analysis. What academic record do you speak of?

Ted Cruz is unironically a thousand times more intelligent than Barack Obama.

The Eliot letter was stupid tho

What other things can you do with a JD besides being a lawyer?

Politics. Teaching. Plenty of things really.

...

You're not wrong, the Talmud is a good introduction to thinking legally and, specifically, thinking extralegally.

Marx perhaps?

I always hear about "Marxist perspective" "marxist interpretation" or Marxist legal philosophy. Anyone able to confirm y/n whether Marx is worth it?

Right there with you.

That story about the top of the stairs thing sounds like a total myth, give me a break

For jurisprudence? Marx is not particularly critical.

Outside of that? Depends on what you want out of it. If you like philosophy, social science, or political science, and you're capable of giving a charitable interpretation AND being critical of what you read, it's worth the time.

So many people are caught up with the idea of Marx, or of being a revolutionary or whatnot, that they don't bother to just explore his ideas and their context.

Im starting berkeley law in three weeks (Parents are paying for everything so no debt). My rule is Veeky Forums only on sunday mornings

God speed.

We fugged

go to church, heathen

>Parents are paying for everything so no debt
You could take all the money, invest it and live frugally off the interest.

But then i'll never get to be called doctor nor extend my douchiness to its fullest

-

user, JD Candidate

no JD goes by the title "doctor". mds and phds will both hate you.

That's just a silly story, but grades can be unfair. I got As in classes where I attended half of them and didn't even finish the exam or completely invented several of my answers, and low Bs/Cs in classes where I absolutely busted my ass and felt like I crushed the exam. I had two or three classes where the curve was actually negative, there were so many high grades that people got their scores lowered. People who work really hard (generally to the point of not having much of a life outside of studying) will excel of course, but there's an element of luck involved for everyone.