Ignoring Pre-Islamic Persian legacy

When looking at national epics in Barnes and Noble, I always see the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Eddas, Arabian Nights, the Bhagavad Gita, and much more. However, I never see the Shahnameh, which is considered Greater Iran's Zoroastrian epic. Furthermore, in the world religion section, there are many books on Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, Christianity, and more, but I never see one on the Zoroastrianism or the Zend-Avesta.

Why is such an important, influential religious tradition ignored by the public? There are good books devoted to them on Amazon!

Other urls found in this thread:

amazon.com/Shahnameh-Persian-Kings-Penguin-Classics/dp/0143108328/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_t_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=J1AGX19CQ4JJMTNSCPCV
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhāran_Buddhist_texts
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhāran_Buddhist_texts#Published_Material
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

Because its not common culture and its followers are dyeing out.

>Because its not common culture
Zoroastrianism heavily influenced the Abrahamic faiths. I can go more in-depth if need be.

>its followers are dyeing out.
I mean, one can say the same for Greek polytheism.

Because there are few practicioners, and almost none in the West. And unlike Greek epics which were appreciated by Christian Europe, and experienced a huge revival during the Renaissance, the Zoroastrian epics don't have any currency outside of Iran. Even in Iran, they're careful to avoid the Zoroastrian aspects of the stories due to being mostly Shia Muslim.

I agree that it's sad there aren't decent, widely available, translations of the Avesta or Shahnameh. I don't even know of a full Avesta translation aside from the horrendously outdated Sacred Books of the East version.

>I agree that it's sad there aren't decent, widely available, translations of the Avesta or Shahnameh
Yes there are. Dick Davis' translation of Shahnameh is very good:
amazon.com/Shahnameh-Persian-Kings-Penguin-Classics/dp/0143108328/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_t_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=J1AGX19CQ4JJMTNSCPCV

Check image too.

Also, I think the Gathas have some decent translations, especially on Avesta.org. I think the Gathas should be more widely read like the Tao Te Ching.

>they're careful to avoid the Zoroastrian aspects of the stories due to being mostly Shia Muslim.
Shahab al-Din Suhrawardi and Mulla Sadra added some Zoroastrian elements to their Islamic theology. Also, Zoroastrians still survive as a minority in Yazd, Iran, retaining traditions dating to Sassanian era.

>Check image too.
Forgot to attach image.

>Shahnameh
From year 1000 CE
>Zend-Avesta
Incomplete
>Why is such an important, influential religious tradition ignored by the public?
It involves fire a lot and its scriptures turn out to be very flammable, also Islam being Islam

>Incomplete
The Gathas are enough. The Gathas are the portion of the Avesta attributed to the words of Zarathustra, and there are translations available on Avesta.org.

>From year 1000 CE
The Shahnameh was based on oral tradition and accurately details Sassanian kingly lineage in its third part. There are Penguin editions based off the vast majority of it, which is huge, and significant portions like Rostam versus Sohrab. The Shahnameh is replete with Zoroastrian imagery.

>its scriptures turn out to be very flammable, also Islam being Islam
Zoroastrian minority is maintaining traditions dating to Sassanian era, it has a continuity up to this age, but you don't see Germanic pagans maintain a continuity, hence the revivalism.

Given these facts, the only answer is that anti-Persian sentiment is very strong in this time period, and the elites want to portray Iranian cultural legacy as backwards or identical to Arabic culture. It wants to foster a culture of ignorance in this regard. Even Nietzsche and Schopenhauer knew more about Zoroastrianism than the average Anglo or Jew in the modern age.

I forgot to mention how I always see Epic of Gilgamesh too.

>Because there are few practicioners,
Zoroastrianism arguably had more impact than Sumerian religion, so why do we always see Epic of Giglamesh and not Shahnameh?

The best part is how they make alexander the great actually persian in the shanemah lulz hus persian dad cant stand mom's breath so he sends her back to filqus/phillip of macedonia who pretends the kid sekandar/alexander is his

Because it's older, the Sumerians are shilled because they're almost all we have from that time. They're important by process of elimination, because history likes to pretend being a straight line.

>Das rite chillun D'yogenius toll us to fuck off

Are the Gathas older than Epic of Gilgamesh?

The oldest surviving version of Gilgamesh predates Zoroaster by more than a thousand years.

The west has did more to preserve its history.

Shahnameh was revered in Safavid times, and Zoroastrian minorities continue to survive and maintain Sassanian era traditions and preserve ancient Gathas.

Also, this is a question about respect or intrigue/interest, not who did best preserving.

>Why is such an important, influential religious tradition ignored by the public?

And as a reminder, Zoroastrianism as well as Hinduism are some of the closest things we have to ancient Indo-European traditions. The Indo-European tribes that conquered the far east bred out (or were subjected to Arab invasions in the case of Iran) but both Persia and India carry on many of those traditions and to this day speak Indo-European languages, not to mention "Iran" literally meaning "Aryan." And it's funny to think that white SWPLs who practice yoga believing they're doing some exotic eastern thing are likely connecting with their own people's ancient practices. Important stuff for white people to know, but this information is often suppressed for various reasons. Modern day Indians don't like hearing their upper castes are the descendants of Aryan invaders but there are still many fair-skinned Iranians and other peoples throughout the middle east because that's where many "white" people used to live, that's who built these ancient civilizations.

>das rite bois, we waz yogis and saddhus and shiet
lmfao @ this STJ-tier delusion

>Modern day Indians don't like hearing their upper castes are the descendants of Aryan invaders
anecdote: I was watching a bunch of youtube videos last week re PIE expansion for personal interest and the general impression in the comments was not of aversion but rather the opposite, modern Indians (on a side note, is "Indian" really a thing or just a convenient invention from the West?) seem to be quick to claim the PIE invaders waz and still iz them

Geez, who could be surprised that someone who doesn't use proper grammar and gets his information from YouTube comments doesn't know history very well? Indians call it the "Aryan Invasion Theory," and even with definitive genetic research confirming what has been long known, it is a highly politicized and contentious issue there.

Protip, little guy: stick to the Harry Potter threads until you have a bit more knowledge about the world under your belt, and use capitalization and punctuation correctly if you expect to be taken seriously and not assumed to be some 15 year old low IQ mestizo, which I'm guessing you are anyway.

That's a good question and one I have often asked myself. I believe a good reason for this is a combination of the following;

1. The early purging of the Zoroastrian tradition at the time of Alexander, leaving scant material for posterirty. It is, by and large, a fragmentary tradition, much like Alexandrian Hermeticism and the Chaldean Oracles of Neoplatonic Theurgy. Even though it might be thriving today, I can only assume that it is but a shadow of it's former self.

2. The poor understanding of this tradition to outsiders.

Consider Aristotle, for example, and his treatment of Thales of Miletus. When Thales spoke about Water being the First Principle, he obviously had the Egyptian Nun in mind – it was Thales who exhorted Pythagoras to study with the Egyptians for their wisdom. Yet this went completely over Aristotle's head. If misunderstanding someone so blatantly of his own Hellenistic culture, how further the understanding must be of a foreign tradition.

3. The strong aversion of polytheistic ritual traditions in general by the modern audience in favor of meditative mysticism.

Consider Daoism, for example – historically, the movement became formalized during the Han dynasty with the emergence of the Zhengyi sect, an ascetic school with an emphasis on soteriological, polytheistic ritual worship. This was followed by the Shangqing sect, which pioneered meditative practices of visualizing stellar body gods. The Lingbao followed thereafter, combining aspects from both of these in a unique way.

And yet, the general audience studies the Dao De Jing and Zhuangzi almost exclusively. I can go into the historical reasons for these later, but my point is that the modern conception of Daoism in the Western imagination is groomed in a very particular fashion. The same goes for Hinduism – it is not Vedic ritual that captures the attention of the people, but the Medieval tradition of mysticism. Or at least the whitewashed idea of it.

4. The academic insistence on the Platonic Academy being the first institution of higher learning in the West, dismissing Pre-Socratic philosophy as largely primitive.

Mesopotamia enjoys the boon of being considered the craddle of civilization, with an overwhelming quantity of cuniform tablets having been recovered. Egypt on the other hand was considered as a civilization of great wisdom in the Hellenistic world and the Greeks ascribed much of their knowledge to them; Aristotle credited them with the invention of mathematics, and both Thales, Pythagoras and Plato were said to have studied with them, the latter two with the Persians as well. But this fact is much repressed by modern academia, which insists on the "Greek Miracle" – the enduring popularity of Egypt can for the most part be ascribed to Napoleon's expedition that so captured the Romantic imagination.

With that said, I don't necessarily think it's so bad that Zoroastrianism is so underappreciated. On the contrary, considering the whitewashing that has happened to the Asiatic traditions in the hands of New Agers with their culturally ingrained arrogance of Protestantism, I think Zoroastrianism benefits greatly from being left in the shadows.

>that's who built these ancient civilizations.
Harappa.

You seem well known user. What are your go to sources for Daoism, Zoroastrianism et c.?

Is this the Gathas? Where can I buy whatever this is from? It's very good.

>Even though it might be thriving today, I can only assume that it is but a shadow of it's former self
As I have explained REPEATEDLY in this forum, Zoroastrianism of SASSANIAN era was preserved very well. The Shahnameh, for example, does a good job recording Sassanian kingly lineage. Moreover, the Gathas are from Zarathustra.

He does not know anything well. I've actually read a bunch of books on Zoroastrianism by reputable scholars, and I can recommend some stuff if you're interested.

No, it's from the Shahnameh, the translation I linked.

My recommendations:
1) Zarathustra and Zoroastrianism by Michael Stausberg
2) Richard Foltz's Religions of Iran: From Prehistory to the Present
3) Gathas from the Avesta, avesta.org has a good translation

Please do.

>He does not know anything well.

Don't be so overtly sensitive, user. It doesn't suit your case well.

>As I have explained REPEATEDLY in this forum, Zoroastrianism of SASSANIAN era was preserved very well. The Shahnameh, for example, does a good job recording Sassanian kingly lineage. Moreover, the Gathas are from Zarathustra.

My point was fairly simple – Sassanian Zoroastrianism and it's modern continuation can in certain respects be considered a shadow of it's former self as Alexander slaughtered the old priesthood. Since early Zoroastrianism was an oral tradition, we know next to nothing about it. The Letter of Tansar was foundational in the Orthodox establishment of Sassanid Zoroastrianism and the Zend Avesta in particular, with him claiming that the Heterodox tradition had decayed and he was to reinvigorate it.

With Alexander conquering Persia, Zoroastrian beliefs became mixed with Hellenistic paganism. In order to understand this decline that led to the Sassanid Orthodox revival, you should definetly check out "Traditions of the Magi: Zoroastrianism in Greek and Latin Literature" by Albert De Jong. Roman Mithraism is most certainly a byproduct of this.

I want to touch on a point you made in an earlier post:

>Zoroastrian minority is maintaining traditions dating to Sassanian era, it has a continuity up to this age, but you don't see Germanic pagans maintain a continuity, hence the revivalism.

You seem to be under the impression that "continuity" equals "ideological consistency", which if you have studied the historical progression of various religions is most certainly never the case – religious traditions are very fluid, progressively shifting and adaptational to their milleu.

With the exception of the Gathas and a handful of Yasnas written in Old Persian, the Zend Avesta is largely an original compilation of the Sassanid era. Two kings in particular, Shapur I and Khosrau I, were well known for their religious eccleticism.

Shapur I in particular - who was instrumental in the establishment of Sassanid Zoroastrianism by means of the high priest Kartir - even wanted to add Hellenistic material to the Avesta. Both Shapur I and Kartir likewise seems to have had an affinity for the Heterodox and Hellenstically influenced Zurvanism, which is quite puzzling, since Orthodox Mazdaism came out triumphant in the end.

In conclusion, it is very naive to suppose that Sassanid Zoroastrianism was without outside influences and that it constitutes a faithful continuation of Early Zoroastrianism. I'm not deriding this tradition by any means, but there is a general tendency amongst religious folks to carry an unhealthy ammount of historical romanticizing.

I agree with what you are saying now, sir, but initially your number 1 point wasn't that precise. I agree with you Achaemenid era has "scant material for posterirty and is, by and large, a fragmentary tradition", but I would say Sassanian era Zoroastrianism is still alive, regardless of never being a direct continuity of Achaemenid traditions, yet I, personally, find Sassanian traditions better.

Yes, I know this from reading Richard Foltz, hence why I made sure to say "Sassanian era". Also, I do not believe the Achaemenids were fully Zoroastrian, but they were a mix of Mithraist (not the Roman iteration) and Zoroastrianism. Both derive from Indo-Iranian religion, but I'd agree Achaemenid rituals were largely loss, unlike Sassanian rituals. Furthermore, I do not consider Achaemenids to be the beginning of Iranshahr, but rather they were precursors and the Sassanids signify beginning of Iran, hence even the word comes from it. If we want to become technical, based off the available evidence, then, sure, it is accurate to say Sassanids were heavily influenced by Achaemenids rather than in direct continuity with them.

Zoroastrianism began in Bactria, which was was Eastern part of Greater Iran. It took awhile for it to spread westward into Persia, and even when it did during Achaemenid empire, most of the kings continued revering Mithra, even though Zoroaster relegated him to rank of Yazata under Ahura Mazda.

Finally, Sassanid Zoroastrianism was more interesting to me. Consider how Zurvanism was actually somewhat existential and reminiscent of Heraclitus' philosophy. Furthermore, Manichaeism and Mazdakism were interesting traditions too. I find Shahanameh did a good job conveying Sassanian-era aesthetics and philosophy.

Also, if I were to be honest, Roman Mithraism was the pinnacle of Zoroastrian tradition for reasons my weird fiction short stories will go into.

But yeah, I'd agree that Zoroastrianism was reinvented and codified by Kartir Hangirpe in Sassanian era.

I consider Greeks an important influence in my heritage. I believe Hellenism enriched Persia more than the other way around. I do not agree that Hellenism was exclusively the birthplace of the West because its influences stretched even as far as Mahayana Buddhism's development in Gandhara.

>Also, if I were to be honest, Roman Mithraism was the pinnacle of Zoroastrian tradition for reasons my weird fiction short stories will go into.

>I do not agree that Hellenism was exclusively the birthplace of the West because its influences stretched even as far as Mahayana Buddhism's development in Gandhara.
I more or less know how it came to happen, but do you know in what way exactly Hellenism influenced Mahayana?

Some of the oldest Buddhist texts were written in Gāndhārī.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhāran_Buddhist_texts

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhāran_Buddhist_texts#Published_Material

Gandhara was a melting pot of Greek, Persian, Indian, and etc. influences.

John Keay's India: A History has some remarkable chapters on the development of Buddhism, it's cultural context and influences from the Greek courts.