SS vs PPL

Is basic PPL good for a new beginner just getting into lifting? Is it as good as SS? I don't want to he a fuckhueg beefcake with thunder thighs, just a shredded buff skinnyfag. I'm pretty small right now 140lb and 5'9 I wanna get to like 165

Also I'm wondering how many reps to do. It looks like SS is only 5 reps and I've been doing like 8-15 with PPL. Do I really need low reps? Do I need to do PPL 6 times a week or can I do it MWF like SS?

This is what I was doing. Can I just do 5 reps of heavier weight with these and not be a fat fuck? I'm like 10-12% BF right now. I've only been lifting for a few days, should I do high reps with legs so I don't get huge thighs and have to buy new pants?

Forgot pic

PPL feature is frequency, so if only MWF you're hitting the muscle once a week, not enough, do a full body routine 3 times a day
oh and SS is a Veeky Forums meme

Yeah man whatever you do don't hit legs at all, I did it once and my legs became pro bodybuilder tier overnight.

pretty sure any type of ppl is intermediate level, and not recommended for beginners
but might do well maybe if you eat and sleep well

PPL is garbage overall for a couple of reasons.
First and foremost is frequency and time management. If you choose to do the 3x a week variant (PxPxLxx) you are getting 1x a week frequency per muscle group which is 100% retarded for continual progress. Think about it, that's only 4 sessions per month per muscle group. If you choose to do the 6x a week variant, you're still only getting 2x a week frequency.
Why the fuck would you want to go to the gym 6x a week to get 2x a week frequency per muscle group? You could get the same going to the gym 2-4 times a week by
1. doing fullbody twice a week (or three times for 3x a week frequency),
2. a simple Upper/Lower routine
3. a simple Push/Pull/x/Push/Pull/x/x
so by all margins, PPL sucks for getting effective, consistent frequency within a weekly timeframe. Maybe if you just really like going to the gym 6 days a week you'll like it, but it's by far the most sub-optimal way to accrue volume and frequency.

Beyond that, PPL at it's core doesn't make any logical sense. Why would you split your "legs" and your "pull" like that? Its 100% retarded to dedicate a whole day to legs. All you need is a Squat, a couple sets of some squat accessory work, and maybe a calf raise. You need a whole day for that shit?
Plus on your pull day with deadlifts, you're working a lot of legs, alot of posterior chain and back, and squatting compliments the deadlift well, and vice versa. And posterior chain compliments the back, your rows, etc. So you can do leg training when you train back. Why anyone would split them like that is beyond me.
You might think recovery will be fine since you're not hitting each muscle group back to back, but all your muscles are connected to the same frame. Your rotator cuffs won't like heavy benching and pressing on push day and heavy chin ups, rows, etc on pull day. Your back won't like getting hammered with volume on pull day and then getting under a squat bar on leg day

PPL for beginners is so fucking retarded man

going from 0 days per week of lifting to 6 days per week of lifting is surely a recipe for sustained progress, you definitely won't just burn out and quit in a few months

I'm switching back to PPL now, SS-type lifting was nice but my squat and diddly have been stuck at lmao4pl8 forever and I want jacked arms again.

I like to hit a core lift heavy first, then do a bunch of assistance and a light compound at the end. "Break it down, then put it back together."
>push
5x5 bench
4x8 press
3x10 flye
3x10 front raise
3x10 skullcrusher
2x15 dips
>pull
5x5 deadlift
4x8 pullups
3x10 shrug
3x10 back flye
3x10 curls
2x15 Yates row
>legs
5x5 back squat
4x8 front squat
3x10 leg ext
3x10 leg curl
3x10 calf raise
2x15 hack squat

Also you can do this more than 3 days/week. Since I have dumbbells at home and a park w/ a pullup bar next door I can do a (diddly-free) pull day whenever and just focus on Push and Legs indagym. In this case I'd add back ext to diddly/pull day and make sure to get a day like that in at least every other week.

>3x10 leg ext
>3x10 leg curl
>2x15 hack squat

so you do the squat, a compound that eliminates the need to do all that extra fluff and pump, but then you do the fluff and pump anyway
so retarded

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easy on the soy man

>barbell squat
>training the knee flexion function of the hamstrings

look up lombard's paradox so you can understand why the squat isn't a good hamstring exercise

inb4
>i feel my hamstrings on squat!
no you don't that's your adductor magnus which acts as a hip extensor

Kek, I did PPL from day 0, 6 days per week and now it's been almost a year and I'm still pumped to go to the gym every single day.
You don't deserve to make it if you burn out that easily.

Trust me on this, you want heavy compounds, medium-weight compounds, AND fluff 'n' pump. Feels good man. Looks good too

no way bro compounds only for life, and he has the 12 inch arms to prove it

disagree, some people need a more manageable introduction to lifting before they really get hooked on it

6 days/week is a lot of time for a beginner to commit when you include travel to and from the gym, etc.

do GSLP until you can barely hit 5 reps anymore at the amrap set and then switch to nuckols beginner programs. 3x5 sets across is garbage for anyone who isn't training to regain strength or absolute beginner with no knowledge of the lifts.

You definitely need to have heavy compounds, you can add accessories to nuckols

Gslp is the way


>Warm-up: chin-ups and pull-ups

AxBxCxx

A
>2x5, 1x5+ Pendlay Row
>2x5, 1x5+ Bench
>2x6-8 Weighted Chin-ups
>2x5, 1x5+ Squat
>2x12 DB Supinating Curls / DB Hammer Curls (alternate)
>3x10 Leg Raises

B
>2x5, 1x5+ OHP
>2x6-8 Weighted Dips
>1x5+ Diddly
>2x6-8 Weighted Chin-ups
>2x12 DB Supinating Curls / DB Hammer Curls (alternate)
>3x10 Leg Raises

C
>2x5, 1x5+ Pendlay Row
>2x5, 1x5+ Incline Bench
>2x5, 1x5+ Front Squat
>2x6-8 Weighted Chin-ups
>2x12 DB Supinating Curls / DB Hammer Curls (alternate)
>3x10 Leg Raises

With the A squat first, then chin-ups
>mfw cant write

where did i mention anything diet related. what the fuck are you talking about? lol

never said curls or other types of accessories are bad. but doing high volume hack squats and fucking leg extensions is retarded if you're also doing heavy squats.
there is such a thing as diminishing returns.

Best thing to do is a linear progression routine until you hit approx 1/2/3/4 or for 3 months or some shit, basically just to push yourself out of the beginner stage, accustom your body to volume (even though LP volume is low) and get you familiar with how the body works under heavy weights.
After that, switch to whatever is most relevant to your goals. If you want PPL i assume you want aesthetics. Don't even attempt to program for yourself until you've been lifting for a good few years. There's plenty aesthetics routines - PHAT/PHUL, jacked and tan 2.0, renaissance periodization etc. Make sure you continually are improving strength on the main compounds because getting strong as a natty is a requirement to getting big, as well as doing plenty accessories to fill the gaps eg Romanian deadlift, DB bench, laterals, face pulls, upright rows, curls, skulls, pushdowns and extensions, leg raises, which is assuming the main compounds are already being done and progressed with a good strength progression made by an actual coach.

Don't make your own routine.

it's not retarded except for maybe the hack squat after normal squat

leg extensions after squatting is something present in a lot of hypertrophy programs (and powerlifting programs too - if it's good enough for ed coan and damien pezzuti it's good enough for you faggot)

If you've never worked out in your life, do SS for a few months to build a base strength level, but also importantly it starts you at low volume, which is fine. You currently have no volume. Starting at too much volume limits your long-term growth because you'll need to eventually add volume to grow. Your body needs to get used to recovering.

Starting PPL immediately is a bad idea. The volume is too high for new lifters. You'll be tired and it'll be hard to recover, so you'll fall out of it pretty quick. Also like I said before, you'll have to keep adding volume and that's hard after a certain point

>getting strong as a natty is a requirement to getting big
[citation needed]

Can't you fix the recovery problem by just starting extremely light?

I used to have all kinds of Veeky Forums screencaps from like 10 years that would answer your question, but I don't know where they are anymore, so sorry.

The 2x15 is supposed to be a cooldown. I'll add an asterisk for ya.

*NOT a 15RM. Just pumpin the blood around and using the muscles together after using them separately.

Also I should add that I like to ramp up the 5x5 and 4x8 by 10% or so each time to one top set. So it's not really all that much volume.

If you start with PPL, you'll be too exhausted to keep up with the volume

SS develops your brain-body connections and your body learns to do movements more efficiently.

People recommend you do SS for a reason, it develops a base that you can work up from regardless of your goals

Imo, no, if you're doing more volume than you can recover, the weight doesn't matter and doing really light weights isn't worth it, anyway. Might as well just do one thing at a time, build strength and recovery potential/work capacity AND THEN switch to volume and build size using decent weights

What's better, benching 3x8 with the bar or doing it with, say, 100lbs? You also need to learn how all of your muscles work and form, anyway

>a compound that eliminates the need to do all that extra fluff and pump

Please stop giving advice on Veeky Forums. There are people here who are actually looking for real advice.

lmao, ok, please show me just one natty who's big who isn't strong

holy fuck, this

GSLP is truly the patrician beginner routine

Everyday a beginner to the gym will ask what program he should do, Veeky Forums will usually respond with either Starting Strength or Stronglifts and order them to eat a lot.

A few months will pass and the beginner have stalled and is confused with why he’s not gaining any muscle despite putting so much weight on the bar.

They say he should stick with the program, read the book, get a lot of sleep and eat even more food and not to switch programs unless he’s reached “intermediate” lifts 1/2/3/4.

The beginner sticks with it and runs it for 1 year, while making very little progress.

Here is where the problem actually lays: Starting Strength and Stronglifts does not actually build muscle.

Groups on the internet, such as the SS shills, have probably left untold amounts of guys disappointed with how they've looked after 3-12 months.

Meanwhile, the "bro" who goes to the gym and does curls, bench, shoulders and a few chin-ups and leg presses totally blows the SS "student" out of the water, getting bigger arms, shoulders, pecs and upper back without that much weight gain.

Beginner strength routines focus on CNS development (mind to muscle connection), correct form, and core development. These are absolutely essential to develop as you begin lifting, even if your goal is aesthetics.

Bodybuilding routines focus on muscle pump, through isolated muscle squeeze and stretch in order to force blood into the muscle, which not only nourishes it with extra blood, but stretches the fibers to be repaired later, denser, stronger.

PPL is an attempted mixture of heavy lifting and compounds based on muscles used in the main compound of the day (chest / tris via bench and variations thereof, back / bis via deadlift and rows, and legs via squats), which is a solid idea, but as stated, is fickle in regards to core stress, and for another reason being CNS recovery. PPL is best left for people who already have athletic bodies, and have plenty of conditioning / other activity in their day, as well as those who have absolutely nothing else to do and can devote as much time as needed to the gym (maybe even twice a day, makes PPL amazing with the frequency you can hit). I highly recommend looking into frequency potential in regard to actual muscle recovery, there's an amazing table put together on some unmentionable site which can be found by searching for "Dr.Mike's training tips".

When it comes down to it, the most important thing is finding a routine that you enjoy and will always keep you going to the gym.

Don't believe those retarded SS shills and ignore the sicky, remeber Veeky Forums at ti's core is a troll site.

They say:

Wanna get jacked? Do SS. Wanna get aesthetic? Do SS. Wanna bodybuild? Do SS. Wanna become CEO of a Fortune 500 company? Do SS.

Only on the internet does this madness exist! Only on the internet do people think that squatting and eating a 2000 calorie surplus a day will cut bodyfat, build and sculpt your bicep peak and give you boulder shoulders.

I’ve never known or met anyone IRL who has looked well built and lean who built themselves up using a low volume, low rep, CNS wrecker of a routine. Plenty have done it with bench presses or inclines, pulldowns/pull-ups, curls, shoulder side raises, rope pushdowns and leg presses though (I would also add that diamond push-ups are awesome tricep builders, and high rep OHPs blow your shoulders out like you’re on trenbolone!).

I wouldn’t blame the likes of Mark Rippetoe for this trend (he has made numerous clarifications, and has never presented himself as other than a strength coach) but rather the army of dedicated SSers that present the program as the answer to all problems and denigrate anyone doing things differently with endless pejoratives and e-statting.

>sticky

OP don't believe these unaesthetic fags shilling SS. And ignore the sticky, remember Veeky Forums is a troll site at it's core.

They say:

Wanna get jacked? Do SS. Wanna get aesthetic? Do SS. Wanna bodybuild? Do SS. Wanna become CEO of a Fortune 500 company? Do SS.

Only on the internet does this madness exist! Only on the internet do people think that squatting and eating a 2000 calorie surplus a day will cut bodyfat, build and sculpt your bicep peak and give you boulder shoulders.

I’ve never known or met anyone IRL who has looked well built and lean who built themselves up using a low volume, low rep, CNS wrecker of a routine. Plenty have done it with bench presses or inclines, pulldowns/pull-ups, curls, shoulder side raises, rope pushdowns and leg presses though (I would also add that diamond push-ups are awesome tricep builders, and high rep OHPs blow your shoulders out like you’re on trenbolone!).

I wouldn’t blame the likes of Mark Rippetoe for this trend (he has made numerous clarifications, and has never presented himself as other than a strength coach) but rather the army of dedicated SSers that present the program as the answer to all problems and denigrate anyone doing things differently with endless pejoratives and e-statting.

Thanks Jason.

dis is da truth bruddah dis is da wey and da light

blessings upon you my friend

...

nice meming friendo

SS is so stupid, PPL is superior for recomp in terms of metabolic stress, frequency of protein synthesis, and a nice balance of isolation and compound movements : )

the sticky is a j0ke.
do your own research

what you don't seem to understand is that as a natural, wether you're doing a high rep routine or a low rep routine doesn't matter

all that matters is your strength level which has a direct correlation to your muscle gains. SS and routines like it place high emphasis on gaining strength rapidly.

doing some high rep "pumping" program might make you FEEL like your'e dong more, but at the end of the day you're just stretching things out, and end up achieving the strength/size you could have got from 6-12 months of SS/beginner program in 3+ years.

this is a complete fucking lie lol you can get bigger and more aesthetic from dumbell volume work and machines than you can from SS

> this is a complete fucking lie lol you can get bigger and more aesthetic from dumbell volume work and machines than you can from SS

>dumbells
well, technically in theory you could.
i don't know why anyone would go to the trouble/hassle of doing deadlifts and squats with 300lb dumbells tho.
most gyms its rare to see dumbbells above 120.
machines can be useful to accrue extra volume, but basing a whole routine off them is retarded.

It really troubles me when a bunch of fat guys such as *some* of those on the SS forums — proud of being shockingly out of condition — feel they are qualified to advise people on weight loss and body recomposition and “call out” anyone who does things a little differently and succeed, looking for evidence of their “failure”.

I don’t know if the SS partisans/internet ultras realize the implications of telling a light framed skinny-fat guy to go and get 15-20kg fatter in exchange for a < 5kg muscle gain. I'm talking blood sugar problems, further hormonal issues, etc. Most of those guys don't give a damn about bloodwork or health. Plenty of them will have ceased lifting by 40 years of age through injury.

Linear progressions take so many forms. The reason why ones like SS are so popular is that they've been created with a view to being inherently "programmable". To me, progression encompasses so many things:

– more reps
– more sets (don't go mad and jump from 2 to 10 sets per exercise next session, though!)
– better *quality* reps by feeling the muscles working more
– increased TUT per set
– same weight/reps/sets but shorter resting periods
– etc…

Weight on a bar is just one way to go about things and the easiest in the early weeks, even if in a caloric deficit. But it comes to an end and there's no reason to push yourself towards injury or obesity when your goal is to look better shirtless and optimise health + hormones + nutrient uptake/partitioning.

The people who do Starting Strength are recognizable immediately ie a big ass, wide hips, small arms and shoulders and minimum 30% bodyfat.

I allowed myself to fall into the trap of the whole “eat big to get big” dogma, whilst doing a pathetically low volume of lifting such as that found in 3×5 programs, I do feel that others (especially very young guys who don’t know any lifters IRL) will continue to get suckered into GOMAD whilst doing routines that last no longer than 20-25 minutes and just make them hate what they see in the mirror.

I know I did. I was fat, injured, still had skinny arms and didn’t lift again for years until more recent times. That was once the last of my tendonosis had cleared up, haha.

Not to mention, those routines just aren’t fun. They’re billed as “simple” but most of them have some elaborate deload process built in once you plateau that you’d never remember unless you did nothing but read that program day and night.

Basically if you ask anything about aesthetics in the starting strength forum, you are immediately told by the coaches to eat 6000 to 10,000 calories and avoid isolation exercises and cardio and only do SS . If you try to argue, you are immediately labeled as a TROLL.

>people think this isn't true
Kekaroo

Starting strength has the best poster boy for their program, that lard ass Zach Evetts.

That’s the result you get from GOMAD and following a fatass coach.

this is true.
SL and SS just arent good enough novice routines.
They are way too unbalanced, both towards leg and towards pure """"strenght"""", with no mention of how to deal with stalls and periodization.
They are not the best for anybody interested in strenght training, and they are probably the worst for somebody interested in aesthetics

monday-arms
3x12 bicep curls
3x12 z curls
3x12 preacher curls
3x8 bench press
3x12 tricep kick backs

Wednesday-chest
3x5 bench
3x12 incline
3x5 dumbell flies
3x12 alternating dumbell curls

Friday-legs
3x3 leg press
3x12 curl bar curls
3x12 reverse curls
3x10 hammer curls

SS is a fantastic program for getting an absolute beginner (no gym experience AT ALL) to learn how to do barbell exercises and develop strength foundation

>They are way too unbalanced, both towards leg and towards pure """"strenght"""", with no mention of how to deal with stalls and periodization.
>They are not the best for anybody interested in strenght training,
You are wrong on all accounts. You should kill yourself or at least stop posting your uninformed opinions on a rhodesian rhinoplasty forum

>I don't want to he a fuckhueg beefcake
Then why do a BB routine?

>no back, shoulder, leg work
enjoy your shitty posture and physique

I did SL for 5 months to bump those numbers up, 5x5 squats every session was fucking overkill. I could feel myself forming into a t-rex but now im doing PPLxPPLxx